Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,432 Year: 3,689/9,624 Month: 560/974 Week: 173/276 Day: 13/34 Hour: 0/6


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Ultimate Question - Why is there something rather than nothing?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 16 of 366 (624870)
07-20-2011 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dr Adequate
07-20-2011 1:58 AM


Self-inconsistent?
Dr Adequate writes:
Any attempt to prove a priori that there should be something rather than nothing would necessarily involve proving that a state of affairs in which nothing existed would be self-inconsistent. Which it isn't.
Are you sure about this one? Isn't a "state"* something? Don't we have a problem with the idea of nothingness existing, as this would give it the state of existence?
To put it another way, wouldn't nothingness involve the absence of everything? But isn't absence a state, meaning that in nothingness something is present? Therefore, not everything is absent.
Have you got a headache yet?
Dr Adequate writes:
My own opinion is that the question is unanswerable, and indeed can only be asked because the English language allows us to talk nonsense.
The word nothing may be a nonsense term. Whenever we use it to describe a real area (there's nothing in the room; there's nothing in space) there is always actually something.
If I'm right, then the answer to your question would be "necessity". Pure nothing can't be real, because reality is something.
*Nothing is No thing. I just looked up "thing", and the fifth definition in the first online dictionary that came up uses your exact phrase: "state of affairs".
a fact, circumstance, or state of affairs: It is a curious thing.
Thing Definition & Meaning | Dictionary.com
No-thing perhaps would be a curious and self-inconsistent thing, and a strange state of affairs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-20-2011 1:58 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 07-20-2011 1:33 PM bluegenes has replied
 Message 23 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-20-2011 5:26 PM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 19 of 366 (624882)
07-20-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by AZPaul3
07-20-2011 1:33 PM


Re: Self-inconsistent?
AZPaul writes:
For the purposes of the OP I took "something" vs "nothing" to mean the the presence vs absence of matter/energy, not "ideas".
"Nothingness" may actually just be one of our ideas. I'd be the last person to suggest that "ideas" would exist without matter and energy, and without biological creatures there to have them. Try GDR for that. But I suppose I am talking about abstracts.
The difficulty seems to be that if we try to conceive pure nothingness, we come up with something. We have phrases like " there was nothing but emptiness". In that phrase, emptiness is seen as the exception to nothing; as something.
If we use a phrase like "in the beginning, there was nothing", we've used a tense of the verb "to be", and turned "nothing" into something which existed, because it "was".
Someone might claim "there could be such a thing as pure nothingness", but they've implied that nothingness would be a thing (not a no-thing) if it did exist.
Maybe we don't have the language to cope with real "nothing" (another contradictory phrase).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by AZPaul3, posted 07-20-2011 1:33 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by AZPaul3, posted 07-20-2011 3:53 PM bluegenes has not replied
 Message 21 by 1.61803, posted 07-20-2011 4:14 PM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 27 of 366 (624939)
07-20-2011 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by 1.61803
07-20-2011 4:14 PM


Re: Self-inconsistent?
1.61803 writes:
"nothing exist" is a oxymoron. Is that right?
Yes. And the O.P. question "Why is there something rather than nothing" implies that nothing could "be", giving it existence.
I basically agree with Doc A. in the O.P. that we can't really sort the question out. However, it wouldn't make much of a thread if we didn't try. So, I'm trying to make the case for pure nothing being self-inconsistent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by 1.61803, posted 07-20-2011 4:14 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by 1.61803, posted 07-21-2011 11:12 AM bluegenes has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


(1)
Message 28 of 366 (624942)
07-20-2011 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ZenMonkey
07-20-2011 5:26 PM


Re: Self-inconsistent?
ZenMonkey writes:
If you can imagine even an absence of absence, I think that that would come pretty close to the idea of true nothing.
I can imagine an infinite regression of absences of absences of absences, but isn't that rather a lot of nothing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-20-2011 5:26 PM ZenMonkey has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by frako, posted 07-20-2011 7:19 PM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 35 of 366 (624997)
07-21-2011 3:14 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by frako
07-20-2011 7:19 PM


Re: Self-inconsistent?
frako writes:
And that nothing is something its the absence of nothing, i say nothing is impossible "unnatural" there always has to be something even if it adds up to nothing.
And I thought I was giving people headaches. One thing we can be sure of, even if true nothing could exist, the only place it could do it is nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by frako, posted 07-20-2011 7:19 PM frako has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 60 of 366 (625110)
07-21-2011 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Black Cat
07-21-2011 11:54 AM


Black Cat writes:
This is false. William Lane Craig provides a concise answer to the above assertion. For this reason I will quote it directly.
The O.P. asked the interesting question "Why is there something rather than nothing". It doesn't ask "tell me a story about something making something".
The O.P.'s in English, Black Cat.
Giving your explanation of something making something has nothing to do with the subject of the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 11:54 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 12:51 PM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 63 of 366 (625114)
07-21-2011 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Black Cat
07-21-2011 12:51 PM


Black Cat writes:
Am I not allowed to reply to one of Dr A's initial thoughts?
Yes. But have you understood them? He's asking "why is there something rather than nothing". The part you replied to was his explanation that the question, fairly obviously, cannot be answered by evoking a thing of any kind as an explanation.
What you quoted from W. L. Craig was about a design inference not having to explain the designer. But Adequate's question cannot be explained by design, because design is something.
The state of there being something rather than nothing cannot be explained by any thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 12:51 PM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 1:32 PM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 69 of 366 (625125)
07-21-2011 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Black Cat
07-21-2011 1:32 PM


Black Cat writes:
I was responding to Dr A's initial thought because it was faulty. One doesn't need an explanation of the explanation for it to be the best explantion. Therefore, God answers the question why there is something rather than nothing.
It wasn't faulty. The question of why there are things rather than no things cannot be answered by evoking a thing. So you haven't actually offered an explanation.
Concentrate. A thing making other things is not an explanation of why there are things rather then no things at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Black Cat, posted 07-21-2011 1:32 PM Black Cat has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 72 of 366 (625135)
07-21-2011 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Dr Adequate
07-21-2011 1:52 PM


Dr Adequate writes:
There would be nothing if there were no things.
I'm beginning to think that the question actually is answerable. Non-existent things can't actually be. So, a state of "no things" cannot exist/be. Because the O.P. question asks "Why is there....", using the verb to be, the answer must be necessity for "something". By definition.
Q: "Why is there something rather than nothing".
A: There must be something because "nothing" cannot exist by definition.
If I'm right, it's interesting, because that question is common, and it would be useful to have a neat little answer.
It seems to be impossible to use the verb "to be" with "nothing" as you've done in the sentence above "there would be nothing if there were no things" without turning "nothing" into a being, and therefore something.
Perhaps true nothing just can't be.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-21-2011 1:52 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by AZPaul3, posted 07-21-2011 4:50 PM bluegenes has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 118 of 366 (625698)
07-25-2011 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Panda
07-25-2011 6:03 AM


Asking God why there's something rather than nothing.
Panda writes:
If you had actually clicked on Frako's link....
Did you try it? It appears that God is just as nonsensical as some of his EvC followers.
Me:
why is there something rather than nothing?
God:
Why do I exist?
Me:
Yes
God:
This was not a yes or no question.
Me:
why do you exist?
God:
Good metaphysical question.
Me:
That is not an answer
God:
By definition it was an answer.
Me:
It did not address the question
God:
Did it really?
Me:
No, it didn't. Why do you exist?
God:
Are you serious? Did it really? Good metaphysical question.
Me:
Are you omniscient?
God:
I don't know whether or not I am omniscient.
I am a robot.
Me:
Who made you?
God:
I was created by Myself.
Me:
Why did you create yourself?
God:
It was determined by my programming.
Me:
Why does the programming exist?
God:
Why does the sun shine?
Me:
I give up
God:
You surrender?
Me:
No. I give up on asking you why there's something rather than nothing
God:
Are you serious? Thanks for the information: said give up on asking you why there is something rather than nothing.
Have a go folks. God is here

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Panda, posted 07-25-2011 6:03 AM Panda has seen this message but not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 165 of 366 (627648)
08-03-2011 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by PaulK
08-03-2011 1:55 AM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
PaulK writes:
Nothing isn't a thing (by definition). If it were it would be self-contradictory. Any argument that does treat nothing as a thing to conclude a contradiction is, therefore, begging the question.
So what would your answer to the O.P. question be?
If I answer:
"Why is there something rather than nothing?" with:
"Because nothing, by definition, cannot be."
Is there anything wrong with my answer?
If we wanted to phrase the question in a way that's truly unanswerable, wouldn't it be better to avoid the verb "to be" and say:
"Why existence?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 1:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 8:19 AM bluegenes has replied
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-03-2011 8:38 AM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 166 of 366 (627649)
08-03-2011 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by tubbyparticle
08-02-2011 7:34 PM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
tubbyparticle writes:
Nothing defines reality when nothing else defines it.
Isn't reality a thing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by tubbyparticle, posted 08-02-2011 7:34 PM tubbyparticle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 8:15 AM bluegenes has not replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 170 of 366 (627657)
08-03-2011 9:13 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by PaulK
08-03-2011 8:19 AM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
PaulK writes:
I'd ask you to explain what you mean, but it does look as if you are begging the question in exactly the way I suggest. Nothing is not a thing, therefore to talk about it existing or not, as a thing - as you seem to be doing - is obviously wrong.
The O.P. question asks about nothing's existence. So, doesn't your point apply to the question, and doesn't my answer agree with you?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 8:19 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 9:20 AM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 172 of 366 (627661)
08-03-2011 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Dr Adequate
08-03-2011 8:38 AM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
Adequate writes:
Can there be a complete absence of unicorns in my back yard? By your reasoning, no. "Complete absence", you would tell us, "indicates a lack of a subject", and "be", you say "indicates the presence of a subject" ... so an absence of unicorns cannot be.
Well then, where are the unicorns?
You're just confusing yourself with grammar.
There can certainly be an absence of anything specific in your backyard.
So where can the absence of everything be, other than nowhere?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-03-2011 8:38 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-03-2011 10:45 AM bluegenes has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2499 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 173 of 366 (627662)
08-03-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by PaulK
08-03-2011 9:20 AM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
Have you tried giving a coherent answer to the question in the way that you understand it? And I certainly accept that nothing is not a thing.
Try an answer:
Why, Paul, is there something rather than nothing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 9:20 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 11:08 AM bluegenes has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024