Jesus's Prophecy Of His Gospel

Once again, this is somewhat vague as a "prophecy" fulfilled.I totally agree that what he said would happen has happened, but it has happened for many religions which 1) started under persecution, 2) survived until picked up by a powerful force (for Xtianity it was Rome), and 3) lasted until modern times where globalization has spread them worldwide.It may surprise you, but very few religions (except the Mayan or Aztec), or religious leaders prophecize that they will LOSE during times of persecution. Especially in tough times, religion plays the role of eternal calm from the storm. It will survive and last forever. Otherwise why are people listening?So, yeah it has come true. Is this a prophecy, or the same plain luck of the world many other religions (which currently exist) have experienced?One may note that even wicca has come back from near extinction to be a relatively thriving faith. Were early witches that cursed the Xtians and said they'll rise again prophetic?Something more remarkable please. Something not everybody says (especially when the chips are down), or that is mundane and carried out through mere self-fulfillment, and preferably something concrete in description outside the control of man anyway.------------------
holmes

How does this make it more significant? If he made some statement to suggest that the entire inhabited world was vastly larger than the KNOWN inhabited world, I would start to feel some greater empathy that this was a prophecy.Likewise if he was in the ballpark (which is to say mentioning years) of how long it would take, I'd be much more empathetic.After all, as far as I can know he was referring to Xtianity being taught around the Europe-MidEast region (with no knowledge of Native Americans, inuits, aboriginals, etc etc). Uhmmmmm... gentiles still live in Jerusalem. Some are even in the Israeli government. Are we to expect a purge soon? Open a thread on this one, because it could at least be quantified in a way to avoid the self-fulfilling abilities of men. I do wonder at the number of advances we have had in the past, and the projected advances we have yet to achieve (some may not be for a century or more). I do hope this gets quantified/qualified as the one above. It could be something a bit more significant than the two you've posted so far. As above though, world travel has been around for a number of centuries as well as the worldwide preaching of the Bible. This monkey wants to throw a wrench right about now. If anything, the Iraq War has proved that a world government not only DOES NOT exist, there won't be one in the conceivable future.What do you consider a world gov't?So far the first two prophecies you've opened threads on have been week, and this peak at future prophecies suggest even if true we are not close to any "end times".------------------
holmes

I don't get what you are saying. All I was agreeing with was that it is true that (like he said would happen) Xtianity is taught across the inhabited world. Is this wrong?The point of my post was supposed to be that just because what he said would happen, did happen, does not prove that he prophesized anything.------------------
holmes

Which means nothing. If anything it reinforces my point. Are you suggesting that those which have survived are therefore correct and all their leaders said in the past are true prophecy? Or has it just been happenstance for the others? This is patently ridiculous. Even you have stated that Muhammed had prophesied Islam would become a world religion. (PS... others have too). One almost expects a patent pending label on this method of prophecy.As has already been pointed out your "end times" have now been stretched out over many many years (centuries to be exact). World travel and worldwide teaching of Xtianity has been around since (at the latest) the 1700's, and much further back if it related to the world jesus knew about.This stretched time frame for fulfillment of each prophecy within the overall set of prophecies, makes it look less like one mystical man looking forward at an event, and one hopeful man looking back to try and piece things together to fit what the mystical man said.To be honest, if you are into looking at prophecies fulfilled, you ought to look at Aztec and Inca prophecy. Not only did these people actually have great astronomical knowledge (and so predicted reallife events), they had eerily accurate prophecies of their own ends. Now THAT is prophesy!But seriously, nothing so far raised is conclusively (or convincingly) "true" as fulfillment of prophecy, rather than being mere happenstance (or self-fulfillment) which mirrors the words of the prophecy.Nothing (yet) has been remarkable. Bilious bigotry and blatant bombast may be your forte, buz, but knowledge of who I am and what I know is not.Almost my entire life has been focused on finding truth. That means researching various methods and faiths. That includes the "mysteries" of Xtianity.But do tell, merlin... teach me of the supernatural.When a palm/tarot reader makes a prophecy, and it comes true (maybe many), what qualities of the prophecy do YOU use to judge if it was real, false, or inconclusive?Or because palm/tarot readers deal in the supernatural what they say must be true or remain unjudged? If that is your method then you are simply a sucker waiting to take a licking.At least twice I have compared the prophecies you have given to the quality of other soothsayers. They are less in quality than the products of your cheesier coldcall artists.Why am I then to trust HIS ability to prophesize, over theirs?In the end you are partly correct... I do not truly KNOW what the supernatural is. This however, is only because no supernatural methodology nor entity has ever worked or been witnessed by me. But I know what theories are out there and practices to protect onesself from getting duped by FALSE PROPHETS.After years of study, the only things which contained consistent predictive value have been models constructed using methodological naturalism.Perhaps nature is the only real magic?------------------
holmes

I repeat my question to you. What characteristics do you use to separate true prophecy from false prophecy?This is very important, even for one who believes in the supernatural.If you have seen good fortune tellers you will know what I am talking about. There must be ways to exclude chance and self-fulfillment from the prophecy, to make such a determination. This means less generalization/ambiguity (in this case temporal) and something beyond the mundane power of the subject to make happen.If you cannot make such a distinction, then how is a person supposed to believe your mystic over a mystic they can see everyday and has more predictive value (especially on a daily basis)?This is a valid line of inquiry.------------------
holmes

Apparently a theist looks at who is writing and then moves on to the conclusion he is wrong. I already said the generation thing is not being treated as an issue.The question to buz, and if you want to address it please do, is...In a world filled with supernatural prophets, and many Gods, what properties do you use to judge false prophecy from true prophecy?I have given a couple of my distinguishing properties and believe they must be held as much for one prophet as to another.If faith is the only property then they are all equally right or all equally wrong.------------------
holmes

While this is certainly an okay criteria, I think it should be generalized to anyone making predictions based on points of common knowledge, or on popular predictions which are believed to be a reliable source. (We can disagree as to whether the Bible is actually a reliable source of prediction, but it is certainly popularly believed to be) I think I agree with this as well... but I would like clarification first, maybe an example. This is also okay, but requires that the "fulfilled prophecies" fit the other criteria. I'm not exactly sure how this can be implemented. I do not want to reraise the "generation" problem here, but will point out that its possible contradiction was smoothed over by using the demands of other prophecy to force a new definition upon it, rather than to negate the prophecy itself.Now, I will present a couple of my own and ask why they are not important...5) The inability of the target, or minions of the prophet, to make the prophecy come true.I think you'd agree with me if some corner soothsayer predicts mr X Y and Z will eat ice cream the next seven Saturdays, and they indeed do so, is NOT grounds for believing a prophecy has been fulfilled.6) Coherence, constraint of prophetical vision.Anyone can predict the future of another person's life pretty easily, if allowed free reign with regards to symbolism and spacing of "markers." For example a soothsayer tells someone that they will first see a bird, then someone will spill something, then the person will fall ill.These are all events which will likely happen at some point. If the prophecy allows for coherent fluctuations (such as the bird may just be a picture of a bird), or no temporal constraint (these events are not within a very very short time period), the prophecy would essentially be meaningless.There may be others, but right now these two points have been mentioned, and I think they are value added constraints, particularly given your point #3. Without these, your #3 makes many dimestore oracles quite the wonder.------------------
holmes

I should have been more clear, I meant a general restatement of that requirement. A couple of the terms were somewhat vague that I wasn't sure if I actually agreed or not, let me rephrase it and see if this is what you were getting at...The prophecy should NOT involve common or naturally occuring events people are likely to see, so that their observation would indicative that something out of the ordinary has occured, and further that the prophet was unlikely to have known or guessed that it would happen in advance.I understand your limitation that "out of the ordinary" means "improbable" and not "impossible".Does this capture what you were after?------------------
holmes

I'm glad to hear this, but then I submit to you that the prophecies so far given have failed based on criteria 1 (my more generalized definition), 2, 5, and 6.The prophecy of his gospel being taught across the inhabited world is neither uncommon, nor (and this is more important) coherent and constrained. Even with the "generation" issue removed, this particular prophecy occured hundreds of years ago, unless "across the inhabited world" is an incoherent characteristic. If its occuring hundreds of years ago is still allowed as point of prophecy for events today, then its temporal contraint is too "loose".I realize this is not the "Israel prophecy" thread, but I might as well address the prophetical constraints here. The fall of Jerusalem was certainly not an uncommon "vision", and the idea that its inhabitants would make a come back at some point was not really bizarre. I'll admit it was optimistic, but hardly improbable. I would have agreed its prediction would have been amazing if it occured in short order (within a "generation") as such comebacks in that time period were more uncommon.However the temporal constraint has opened to nearly two millenia. And what's worse, the fulfillment of the prophecy was so wholly common due to its being conducted by devotees of both Judeo and Xtian sects (only once they had become superpowers and the land desired a 3rd world nonnation) that it is purely self-fulfilling prophecy. It was desired to make the prophecy finally happen, and having it within their power to do so, they did so.I would like to see something with much greater coherence, temporal constraint, and of an uncommon nature (certainly not pure self-fulfillment).------------------
holmes

It does not matter if all of the prophecies were given at the same time. A temporal constraint is on the fulfillment of the prophecies. It could certainly take place "years from now", but the spacing should not be centuries apart or as I have stated, the prophecy is meaningless.And let me just say this, if I predicate fulfillment of prophecy on wars and rumors of wars, and earthquakes in many places, that would be just about every 10-20 years. All of these are so common as to be meaningless. You might as well say "after it rains." Well someone has already pointed out that gentile nations have not been ousted anywhere. But I have yet to see anything which suggests supernatural (uncommon) attributes, much less unlikely uncommon attributes. Everything gets less unlikely when the prophecy stands openended for millenia.------------------
holmes