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Author Topic:   Jesus's Prophecy Of His Gospel
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 16 of 67 (62505)
10-24-2003 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Quiz
10-23-2003 7:13 PM


quote:
The Bible is still being spread throughout the world buz.
Uh huh. Yah, it sure is, isn't it? In fact, I have friends/Christian brother and wife who are presently translating the Bible into Indonesian dialects. It's not completed completely complete, but completedly becoming complete. Thanks to computers and other modern communication technology, the prophecy's fulfillment is on the fast track to complete fulfillment.
quote:
But for the Athiest out there according to your interpertation or for your interpertation the world at the time the Apostles where on the earth was ONLY ROME so there for it reached the entire known world.
Quiz, are you trolling for Biblical adversaries, or what? You showed up on the forum with your post #1 at the onset of my last Jerusalem thread. Statements like the above make me wonder why you just happened to emerge in these debates at such a time?????
I repeat, the prophecy states that the gospel will be preached to the ENTIRE INHABITED WORLD for fulfillment.
quote:
If you want to take it further the end also came in a way because the christian religon took over rome, pagan was expelled,etc
1. Nonsense! Please read the entire accounts of the Olivet Discourse as given in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Then tell the www whether the prophesied end time could have came in the fourth century AD.
2. Please initiate a thread defining the Christian religion. (Do not derail this thread.) What showed up on the scene of world religions in the era of Constantine and how that scene played out in history is a far cry, I'm sure, from the fundamentals Jesus and his apostles established for the religion of NT Christianity.
quote:
You can take it even further by remembering the prophecies about the stars falling from the sky, etc, this could be metaphore and be speaking about the gods of the pagan religon, in anycase the stars sure fell when the christian religon or formally known as catholic took over.
You're delving into another topic here, but for the record, there's stars up there as we post which will indeed fall some time in the future in one way or another. Look up into the sky. When you see a star which seems to be moving, it is moving. They are called satelites which have been propelled up there by earth folk. They appear as stars. Will these fall when Jesus appears in the clouds at his 2nd advent? I don't know, but that is a possible fulfillment of this prophecy. I post this because you brought it up, but this is not the thread for delving into these other prophecies indepth. Please don't ask me to open a thread on this prophecy, because it's not on my list as a significant prophecy which I can dogmatically explain and interpret.
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Quiz, posted 10-23-2003 7:13 PM Quiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Quiz, posted 10-24-2003 7:34 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 33 by DBlevins, posted 10-25-2003 4:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 67 (62510)
10-24-2003 2:19 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
10-24-2003 12:49 AM


quote:
That's the problem, Buz. The supernatural just doesn't exist. It can't, by definition. On the one hand, if it's something that can affect reality, then it's not supernatural, it's natural. On the other, if it's superior to nature and can't affect it, then there's no reason to suppose it exists.
This is such an obvious paradox about the supernatural that I'm surprised that somebody as old as you hasn't picked up on it.
I gota love your illogical logistics, Crashy! They're pithly profound. Cool job of spinning off the reality of the supernatual and demeaning ole buz in one fell swoop.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 10-24-2003 12:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 10-24-2003 8:51 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
TheoMorphic
Inactive Member


Message 18 of 67 (62515)
10-24-2003 3:07 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
10-24-2003 12:49 AM


CrashFrog writes:
The supernatural just doesn't exist. It can't, by definition.
i would suggest amending this to; by definition the supernatural can not have supporting evidence. well no objective, or empirical evidence at any rate.
subjective/personal evidence is not effective at all when trying to convince other people of something.
I'm hella not going to get into this thread because i really doubt i'm versed enough to present serious discussion... it does lead me to wonder though should someone really have to do extensive studies of the bible, and all the surrounding context to critically analyze certain prophecies?
I would think someone with a firm grasp of Hebrew would be the most valuable to this thread... It's pretty irrelevant weather English words are ambiguous or not... since the prophecies were not originally written in English seemingly ambiguous words in English could have very clear and distinct words in Hebrew, while seemingly clear words in English could have fuzzy meanings in Hebrew.
anyway... this is me NOT getting into the discussion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 10-24-2003 12:49 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 19 of 67 (62517)
10-24-2003 3:12 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 12:44 AM


buzsaw writes:
1. Of the scores of religions/cults which have emerged, only a very few have survived to become world religions.
Which means nothing. If anything it reinforces my point. Are you suggesting that those which have survived are therefore correct and all their leaders said in the past are true prophecy? Or has it just been happenstance for the others?
buzsaw writes:
2. My point here is that of the scores of religions/cults which have existed the last two milleniums, none of these had prophesied that they would become world religions
This is patently ridiculous. Even you have stated that Muhammed had prophesied Islam would become a world religion. (PS... others have too).
buzsaw writes:
and if they had prophesied they wouldn't have the other prophecies that the Bible has to lend support to the specific fulfillment of the prophecy such as the Bible has given to show that the end time events which were to accompany the gospel prophecy at the time it was to be fulfilled would be in place at the same time.
One almost expects a patent pending label on this method of prophecy.
As has already been pointed out your "end times" have now been stretched out over many many years (centuries to be exact). World travel and worldwide teaching of Xtianity has been around since (at the latest) the 1700's, and much further back if it related to the world jesus knew about.
This stretched time frame for fulfillment of each prophecy within the overall set of prophecies, makes it look less like one mystical man looking forward at an event, and one hopeful man looking back to try and piece things together to fit what the mystical man said.
To be honest, if you are into looking at prophecies fulfilled, you ought to look at Aztec and Inca prophecy. Not only did these people actually have great astronomical knowledge (and so predicted reallife events), they had eerily accurate prophecies of their own ends. Now THAT is prophesy!
But seriously, nothing so far raised is conclusively (or convincingly) "true" as fulfillment of prophecy, rather than being mere happenstance (or self-fulfillment) which mirrors the words of the prophecy.
Nothing (yet) has been remarkable.
buzsaw writes:
You schoolastically saturated scholars of secularistic stuff need to be deprogrammed and apprised of the reality of the supernatural.
Bilious bigotry and blatant bombast may be your forte, buz, but knowledge of who I am and what I know is not.
Almost my entire life has been focused on finding truth. That means researching various methods and faiths. That includes the "mysteries" of Xtianity.
But do tell, merlin... teach me of the supernatural.
When a palm/tarot reader makes a prophecy, and it comes true (maybe many), what qualities of the prophecy do YOU use to judge if it was real, false, or inconclusive?
Or because palm/tarot readers deal in the supernatural what they say must be true or remain unjudged? If that is your method then you are simply a sucker waiting to take a licking.
At least twice I have compared the prophecies you have given to the quality of other soothsayers. They are less in quality than the products of your cheesier coldcall artists.
Why am I then to trust HIS ability to prophesize, over theirs?
In the end you are partly correct... I do not truly KNOW what the supernatural is. This however, is only because no supernatural methodology nor entity has ever worked or been witnessed by me. But I know what theories are out there and practices to protect onesself from getting duped by FALSE PROPHETS.
After years of study, the only things which contained consistent predictive value have been models constructed using methodological naturalism.
Perhaps nature is the only real magic?
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 12:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 20 of 67 (62525)
10-24-2003 3:40 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 12:44 AM


The problem is that some cults DO survive to become world religions.
If it is almost ineviable that some will then it follows that it is not necessary for there to be anything really special about those that do, any more then there needs to be anything special about a lottery winner. THere may well be relevant mundane factors, but consider how well the Jehovah's Witnesses are doing despite their repeated failed predictions of the end of the world.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 12:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 67 (62541)
10-24-2003 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 12:44 AM


I disagree. There is a prophecy from the LDS church by I think J-smith which says that the book of mormon will flood the world. That is the same as saying it is going to be a world religon.
quote:
You schoolastically saturated scholars of secularistic stuff need to be deprogrammed and apprised of the reality of the supernatural.
Ok Buzsaw this is something you need to think about. "The supernatural" You make it sound like they are ghosts or people flying around with wings that are white, the idea of a ferry-tale. This is definitaly not going to get people to see your side. You make it sound fake and like a disney tale. If you want people to see your side, You have to make it seem real. Dare someone to go and blow there head off, see if they get a picture of death, make them see that death can't just be nothingness where you no longer exists but in the minds of those who love you.(this is a metaphore of course I dont want anyone going and doing this, but really, they have to feel the realness in it just like they feel the realnes in science or in not careing, etc
-Quiz
[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 12:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 67 (62542)
10-24-2003 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 1:55 AM


Ok Buzsaw,
quote:
Uh huh. Yah, it sure is, isn't it? In fact, I have friends/Christian brother and wife who are presently translating the Bible into Indonesian dialects. It's not completed completely complete, but completedly becoming complete. Thanks to computers and other modern communication technology, the prophecy's fulfillment is on the fast track to complete fulfillment
I meet people all the time that were athiest all there lifes and they just found new faith in the bible. That tells me people are still converting.
quote:
Quiz, are you trolling for Biblical adversaries, or what? You showed up on the forum with your post #1 at the onset of my last Jerusalem thread. Statements like the above make me wonder why you just happened to emerge in these debates at such a time?????
I repeat, the prophecy states that the gospel will be preached to the ENTIRE INHABITED WORLD for fulfillment
I am glad you pointed that out. I agree that this prophecy(entire world knowing about christ) has not been fulfilled as of yet; if that is what you are saying, Why post about a prophecy that is not fulfilled yet? As this is nothing ironic!
-Quiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 1:55 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 67 (62544)
10-24-2003 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 12:44 AM


Talking about prophecies is not going to convert someone to being one with the Lord buzsaw. This if anything would draw them away because alot of critics out there have alot to say about the bible and are not willing to accept anything anyone says because of all the problems people advertise about the bible.( I dont agree with or support most of these but there are alot of them out there and alot of them are porely searched out and compared) I would say 90% of them are false, then you have the people who nag at those who dont want to here preaching; making them even more annoyed and you also have those people saying you have SINNED you are going to hell when no body is going to hell only those who are truely evil, Sons of perdition.
-Quiz
[This message has been edited by Quiz, 10-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 12:44 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 67 (62546)
10-24-2003 7:53 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by helena
10-23-2003 12:59 PM


To many languages we have not completly understood as of yet. (go to africa)
-Quiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by helena, posted 10-23-2003 12:59 PM helena has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 25 of 67 (62552)
10-24-2003 8:45 AM


Buz, I have a question regarding how it is that you think about Biblical prophecy.
Do you look at the prophecies individually, figure out if they have come true or not, and then base your belief upon those conclusions?
Or, do you have faith that the Bible must be the inerrant word of God first, before looking at any of the prophecies, therefore making it impossible for you to ever consider that some of them might be so vague as to be meaningless, or that some might even be false or wrong? Wouldn't this just make it very likely that you will be tempted to interpret each prophecy in such a way as to support what you already believe?
If, as I suspect, the second scenario is the case with you, then why bother having this discussion?
You probably don't use the prophecies as reasons to believe; you do it the other way around.

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 11:19 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 67 (62553)
10-24-2003 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 2:19 AM


So, buz, what is this evidence of the supernatural?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 2:19 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 11:28 PM nator has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 67 (62686)
10-24-2003 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by nator
10-24-2003 8:45 AM


quote:
Buz, I have a question regarding how it is that you think about Biblical prophecy.
Do you look at the prophecies individually, figure out if they have come true or not, and then base your belief upon those conclusions?
Well, I see you've already made up your mind as to the answer to your questions. So why did you put it in the form of a question anyhow? Do you want me to answer or are you going to stick with the answers you seem to have already convinced yourself of?
quote:
Or, do you have faith that the Bible must be the inerrant word of God first, before looking at any of the prophecies, therefore making it impossible for you to ever consider that some of them might be so vague as to be meaningless, or that some might even be false or wrong? Wouldn't this just make it very likely that you will be tempted to interpret each prophecy in such a way as to support what you already believe?
If, as I suspect, the second scenario is the case with you, then why bother having this discussion?
You probably don't use the prophecies as reasons to believe; ........
[you do it the other way around.]
See? Your mind is made up, isn't it? So why should I try to convince you otherwise?
[This message has been edited by buzsaw, 10-24-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by nator, posted 10-24-2003 8:45 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by nator, posted 10-26-2003 1:14 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 28 of 67 (62687)
10-24-2003 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by nator
10-24-2003 8:51 AM


quote:
So, buz, what is this evidence of the supernatural?
Get yourself a pencil and paper and write down all the items I've itemized in this thread as to fulfillment and there, you have the supernatural. I've already explained as to how these are unusual and unique as required by true prophecy. I've not going to itemize them again for you personally. Your mind seems to be biasly set, so why waste my time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by nator, posted 10-24-2003 8:51 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Silent H, posted 10-25-2003 12:27 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 48 by nator, posted 10-26-2003 1:19 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 29 of 67 (62738)
10-25-2003 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Buzsaw
10-24-2003 11:28 PM


buzsaw writes:
I've already explained as to how these are unusual and unique as required by true prophecy.
I repeat my question to you. What characteristics do you use to separate true prophecy from false prophecy?
This is very important, even for one who believes in the supernatural.
If you have seen good fortune tellers you will know what I am talking about. There must be ways to exclude chance and self-fulfillment from the prophecy, to make such a determination. This means less generalization/ambiguity (in this case temporal) and something beyond the mundane power of the subject to make happen.
If you cannot make such a distinction, then how is a person supposed to believe your mystic over a mystic they can see everyday and has more predictive value (especially on a daily basis)?
This is a valid line of inquiry.
------------------
holmes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Buzsaw, posted 10-24-2003 11:28 PM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Quiz, posted 10-25-2003 1:34 PM Silent H has not replied
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Quiz
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 67 (62751)
10-25-2003 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Silent H
10-25-2003 12:27 PM


The problem is I believe God wants you to have faith so you wont find prophecies which you are looking for that I know of. Once you have faith in GOD he shows you things which show you that God does exists.
no faith no way you will ever really know he is there, you can debate all day long with no faith, you wont find anything.
-Quiz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Silent H, posted 10-25-2003 12:27 PM Silent H has not replied

  
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