Existence

Hi NoNukes, I can agree that the red dots in the separate tubes would represent the location of the pulse at different times during it's journey to the bottom mirror from the top mirror.The problem is you can't find the pulse going at the angle you have drawn between the tubes.If you will get off your high horse and get you feet down on earth and look at reality instead of magic you might be able to understand what I am saying.I do not disagree that if the tube was clear and somehow the pulse could not escape and you could take a video of the entire trip you could see the pulse at a point that would look like it travels at an angle.If you could slow down the trip frames to a femtosecond of movement of the pulse you could probably see the the pulse go at an angle across the .5 meter from top mirror to bottom mirror.But that will never happen.Now if you will preform the water level experiment I proposed for you to do you can see the same thing in real time.As the water rises in the left tube with the movement of the tube towards the 6 inch mark you would see the exact same thing that happens while the pulse rises in the vacuum tube. After the tube has moved 6 inches along the line the water will have traveled 1 foot in height at the same time it traveled 6 inches along the line.Now if we draw a triangle of the movement of the tube we would have a line at a 90 angle where the tube reaches the 6 inch mark on the line that extended 1 foot verticle label that line 'a' the line from zero would be 6 inches long label that line 'b'. The straight line from zero to the top of line 'a' we will label 'c'.a = 12 inches
b = 6 inches
c = 13.416407864998738 inches.Did the water travel 12 inches to reach the top of the tube?Or did the water travel 13.416407864998738 inches to reach the top of the tube?In the travel of the pulse in the vacuum tube, did the pulse travel 1 meter to reach the top mirror from the bottom mirror?Or did the pulse travel 1.118033988749895 meters in the vacuum tube to reach the top mirror from the bottom mirror?If as you have insisted it travels 1.118033988749895 meters could you explain to me how it travels 1.118033988749895 meters when there is only 1 meter between the top and bottom mirror? It is simple but you have already proved you are incapable of understanding the answer.The pulse does not change tubes as you have it doing in your diagram.All the red dots should be in one tube.Then you drag the tube the .5 meter to the right while the pulse is traveling from the top mirror to the bottom mirror.If you can't understand how the water in the water level only travels 12 inches to reach the top of the left tube while the tube is moved 6 inches along the line from zero to the 6 inch mark and then drops 12 inches to reach the bottom of the tube while moving another 6 inches as described in Message 819 you may never get it.The vacuum tube the pulse travels in is 1 meter long.You can't get the pulse to travel any further than 1 meter before striking the top or bottom mirror without it escaping from the tube. I am not going there.We have my cycle you placed a open light clock on.We have my train with the open light clock on a flatcar.We have my train with a laser pen attached in the center of the bottom mirror of a light clock with top and bottom mirrors which are 18 inches long, 1 meter apart.We have my train where the laser pens are on the track with a sensor at the center of the bottom mirror to cause the laser pen to flash a pulse of light towards the center of the top mirror.Then we had Taq's car with the laser pen mounted flush in the top 1 inch from a pole extended at a 90 to the travel of the car with a detector 4 feet above the roof surface.I have even introduced a water level to show in real time how the pulse travels from bottom mirror to the top mirror and only travels 1 meter in making that journey.So lets stick with what we already got. I am not the one that is saying the pulse exceeds the speed of light. You are the one insisting on that.Because you can't understand how the pulse can travel 1 meter from the bottom mirror to the top mirror without traveling 1.1180 meters.I can understand how the vacuum tube can be moved .5 meter while the pulse travels the 1 meter from the bottom mirror to the top mirror.You don't seem to be able to grasp that the vacuum tube can be moved without changing the angle the pulse has to travel in the tube. If the vacuum tube is 1 meter long in the cycle frame of reference and the pulse travels from the bottom of the mirror to the top mirror, how far does the pulse travel to reach the top mirror from the bottom mirror?If the vacuum tube is 1 meter long and it takes the pulse 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds to travel from the bottom mirror to the top mirror which equals 1 meter, why would it take longer than 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds to travel the 1 meter distance between the two mirrors whether the vacuum tube is stationary or moving at 0.5 c?The pulse would travel at c in a vacuum tube independent of what the tube is doing.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi cavediver,I forgot you never read posts before jumping in on something, forgive me. No.The laser pen is mounted through the roof of the car flush with the exterior at a 90 angle to the travel of the car.It is mounted 1 inch from the pole that extends 4 feet above the car with a detector 4 foot above the top of the laser pen, that protrudes 9 inches in the direction of the laser pen.This pole is mounted at a 90 angle to the travel of the car.The car is traveling in a vacuum at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats.Therefore when the pulse is emitted from the laser pen (a pulse is not a steady light emitted) it is in free fall in the vacuum, which means the pulse will travel in a straight line at 299,792,458 meters per second independent of the motion of the source of that pulse. The laser pen is attached to the car and whatever the car is doing the laser pen is doing. If the car is stationary the laser pen is stationary as well as the pole and detector.If the car is moving at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats the laser pen and pole is moving 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats.The pulse emitted from that laser pen is not affected by what the laser pen, car, or pole does. It goes it's merry way in a straight line in the vacuum in the direction the laser pen was pointed when emitted, at 299,792,458 meters per second independent of the motion of the laser pen, car, and pole. If you were 1/2 mile away and Taq's car was moving towards you quite quickly you would hit head on before you could change your direction and avoid a collision.Well you are not accelerating towards the car nor are you accelerating away from the car.For the car to be stationary from your point of view you must be traveling parallel to the car at exactly 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats.But what effect would that have on the pulse emitted from the laser pen into the vacuum?You and Taq's car would be traveling 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the emitted pulse and you both would move 2 feet before the pulse could reach a 4 foot height above where it was emitted from.Therefore the pulse would miss the detector. That is provided the basic facts are facts in reality rather than doctrine.You did not address where you sister was but for Taq's car to be going in the opposite direction I think I can present a case for that problem.If your sister or you as far as that matters were to be traveling parallel to Taq's car at 224,844,343.5 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats you or your sister would observe Taq's car to be traveling at 74,948,114.5 meters per second away from you.The problem is that does not change the fact Taq's car is still traveling 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats.Therefore Taq's car is traveling 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the pulse emitted from the laser pen. Taq's car would still move 2 feet relative to the emitted pulse which is traveling at 299,792,458 meters per second in free fall in the vacuum independent of the motion of the laser pen, car and pole.The pulse would still miss the detector.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi crash, The head of the laser pen that emitted the light has moved with the car and pole 2 feet from the time the pulse was emitted.If the pulse in free fall in a vacuum travels in a straight line at 299,792,458 meters per second it will miss the detector.Now if SR is false and light does not propragate at 299,792,458 meters per second in a vacuum independent of the motion of the source, you might be able to come up with a way the pulse will strike the detector. Are you saying from the time the pulse was 1 angstrom above the laser pen, the laser pen, car, and pole did not move 2 feet relative to that pulse as the car is traveling 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats?If that pulse is influenced by the motion of the laser pen, car, and pole SR is invalidated. I don't think you want to go there.So maybe you should rethink your position. But I did say relative to the pulse the laser pen, car, and pole have moved 2 feet.If you can't find it in a couple of dozen posts you can find it here.The car with the laser pen mounted with the top of the pen flush with the exterior of the car with the pole mounted to the car, with the detedtor 4 feet above the car that is traveling 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the salt lake flats will move 2 feet relative to the pulse that has been emitted from the laser pen.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi cavediver, I did cover the motion of the earth as it spins and makes its journey around the sun as well as the sun and earth making their journey around the MilkyWay in an earlier post. So much for one of your assertions.How would you propose to speed up the earths rotation to c as well as it journey around the sun to c and their journey around the universe to c.Have you stopped to figure out how short a day would be if it consisted of 1 light period and 1 dark period if the earth was spinning at c?But since I don't know what would happen if the earth was spinning a c.So I will answer I don't know.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi NoNukes, The vacuum tube does serve one purpose. That is to show you that the pulse does not go at an angle as you claim having to cover 1.1180 meters instead of the actual distance the pulse has to cover of 1 meter as that is the distance between the top mirror and the bottom mirror.But the vacuum tube does not move on it's own. It has to be moved by the motion of the cycle that the light clock is attached to the handlebars of.If the cycle does not move the pulse will go up and down in the vacuum tube, until the tube is removed from between the mirrors.If the cycle moves the pulse still goes up and down in the vacuum tube.If the cycle moves at 149,896,229 meters per second the pulse will go straight up and down in the vacuum tube.If the pulse hits the top mirror 149,896,229 times the light on top of the vacuum tube will flash.Since the pulse has traveled up and down in this light clock striking the top mirror 149,896,229 times and the bottom mirror 149,896,229 times to flash the light at T since it left the first B. 1 second has passed when the light flashes. My fig 4.Now according to you the pulse has to somehow travel the distance from the first B to the first T at a bunch of triangles as shown in your triangle in Message 804You can not seem to grasp that the pulse goes up and down in the vacuum tube without getting out of the tube and going at an angle.Could you clear that up for me? You did actually hint at that but I am an old man so coddle me and answer these questions.Does the pulse go up and down in the vacuum tube that is 1 meter long attached to a mirror on the bottom and the top?Does it take 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds for the pulse to travel from the bottom mirror to the top mirror and then 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds to return bottom mirror?Will the cycle travel .5 meter causing the vacuum tube to move .5 meter in the time it takes for the pulse to go from the bottom mirror to the top mirror?Does it take the pulse 1 second to strike the top mirror and cause the light to flash at the first T after flashing at the first B in fig. 4 of mine?Will the cycle travel 149,896,229 meters traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second? I did you didn't like it.I then gave you an example that you keep saying is irrelevant. You then explain that physics of water traveling in a tube and a pulse in a vacuum tube is different.The physics may well be different in the make up of water and the pulse.But they do the same identical thing in the tube. The difference is you can do the one with the water in your kitchen for less than 10 bucks.If you will preform the experiment as I laid out you can then see how the pulse can travel 1 meter high from the bottom mirror to the top mirror while at the same time travel .5 meter in the direction the cycle is traveling that the light clock is attached too.The pulse does not travel at an angle while traveling between the two mirrors.There is only 1 meter between the mirrors not the 1.1180 meters you claim the pulse has to travel.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi cavediver, Going with real numbers.Earth rotates at equator = 465.36864 meters per second
Earth around Sun = 29,951.68 meters per second.
Earth and Sun travel around the Milky Way = 220,000 meters per second. The 2 feet is measured relative to the Salt Lake Flats.I did not mention the movement of the Earth, and Sun around the Galaxy as I do not find it mentioned in the though experiments I have read.Never the less I present some facts.It takes the pulse 4.066813452804019 nanoseconds to travel 4 feet.It takes the car 4.066813452804019 nanoseconds to travel 2 feet.During which time the Earth will travel -6.208162884189288 of an inch.That is much less than the width of a human hair.Maybe that is the reason nobody mentioned it with their thought experiments.I really don't see that movement of the Earth by its rotation, its journey around the sun, and the Earth's and suns travel around the Galaxy would effect the outcome of the pulse missing the detector that is mounted 4 feet above the top of the laser pen that is mounted flush with the roof of the top of the car. At a 90 angle to the travel of the car which is traveling 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the ground on the Salt Lake Flats.Now the real question is will the pulse once released from head of the laser pen in the open vacuum at a 90 angle to the travel of the car make its verticle journey at 299,792,458 meters per second without the motion of the car effecting that travel.If the motion of the car can not effect the direction of the pulse's travel the pulse will miss the detector if it travels in a straight ling.Questions:Will the forward motion of the car effect the travel of the pulse?Will the pulse go in a straight line at a 90 to the travel of the car after being released by the laser pen?Will the pulse strike the detector when the detector has moved 2 feet relative to the pulse after it is released by the laser pen?If you say the pulse will strike the detector as you have asserted in several posts, could you explain in detail how that will happen?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Blevins, I can see my red laser pen if I shine it across a high gloss surface and cause the beam to scatter.But what fearandloathing failed to mention is that in my experiment I was shining my pen at the ceiling.In part of it I was shining it through a cardboard tube from a roll of paper towels.I can even shine the white light through the same tube at the ceiling and if I hold the tube a little above eye level I can't even see the white light that is scattered at the top of the tube, much less between there to the ceiling.God Bless,Edited by ICANT, : No reason given.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi fearandloathing, The pulse released from the pen on my cycle is in an open clock, the same as the one from the car.The pulse is released in a vacuum. It is not released inside of anything, other than a vacuum.The only one that is in a vacuum tube is the one NoNukes and I are discussing.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi NoNukes, I would rather have the answer to the following questions.In my modified light clock experiment, does the pulse go up and down in the vacuum tube that is 1 meter long attached to a mirror on the bottom and the top?In my modified light clock experiment,does it take 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds for the pulse to travel from the bottom mirror to the top mirror and then 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds to return bottom mirror?In my modified light clock experiment, will the cycle travel .5 meter relative to the Earth and PlanetX causing the vacuum tube to move .5 meter in the 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds it takes for the pulse to go from the bottom mirror to the top mirror?In my modified light clock experiment, does it take the pulse 1 second to strike the top mirror 149,896,229 times and cause the light to flash at the first T after flashing at the first B in fig. 4 of mine?In my modified light clock experiment, will the cycle travel 149,896,229 meters traveling at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Earth and PlanetX?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi NoNukes, I didn't know we were playing a game. I thought we were trying to have a conversation where you was trying to debunk my thought experiment.As far as me answering a question for you that would be an impossibility. When you understand the statement you made there you will quit making the assertion you made below. What is going at a diagonal?The modified light clock, the cycle, or the tube between the two mirrors.The tube does not grow to 1.1180 meters the length required to reach from B on the bottom mirror to reach T on the top mirror going at an angle.In fact the vacuum tube the pulse is in stays 1 meter in length thus the pulse can only move 1 meter not 1.1180 meters as you assert. The vacuum tube between the two mirrors is 1 meter in length. It takes 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds for the pulse to travel 1 meter.Regardless of what any observer might observe it is impossible for it to take 1 nanosecond longer than 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds for the pulse to travel the 1 meter distance from the top mirror to the bottom mirror in the vacuum tube. If you disagree give your argumentation.In Message 844 you said:

Top mirror
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Bottom mirror  

That is the only direction the pulse will travel in the vacuum tube.The pulse is dragged sideways as it makes its journey between the mirrors. This dragging is caused by the forward motion of the cycle relative to the Earth and PlanetX.You also asked me the following question and gave the answer for me. So yes if my van moves one meter forward I will move 1 meter forward.I can also move 4 inches toward the roof of the van while the van moves 1 meter forward. Does that mean the seat goes straight up or at an angle to the floorboard of the van?You then say: How would the pulse be left behind?It is enclosed in a vacuum tube with no way of escape. The pulse is going to go in the direction the cycle travels whether it wants to or not.There is outside force applied to the pulse to force it to go in the direction of the motion of the cycle placing the pulse in a non-internal frame.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi crash, I have a hard enough time trying to grapple with statements like these. So the speed of light is not the same in all reference frames.Then why say: The speed of light is the same for all observers.Which is it?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Taq, What is what in reference within the reference frame of the car?Since you are replying to a message to cavediver you need to clarify what you he was talking about, that the statement you quoted was a reply too.From Message 831From Message 828So the 2 feet you are asking about in this post is the 2 feet the car moves in a vacuum at 149,896,229 meters per second relative to the Salt Lake flats from the time the pulse is emitted from the laser pen until the pulse has traveled 4 feet at a 90 angle relative to the direction of the travel of the car.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi NoNukes, I need more coddling. No place have I said light can be forced to exceed "c".If I am in my van on a oval race course and set my cruise control at 100 mph I will be traveling at 100 miles per hour and yet I will be accelerating due to the force exerted upon the car and my body will want to go toward the passenger side of the car.The pulse will be going up and down in the vacuum tube and yet the motion of the cycle the light clock is attached too will exert force on the tube which in return exerts force upon the pulse. Thus we are not talking about an inertial frame of reference.The pulse will travel at "c" in the vacuum tube regardless of what the cycle with the light clock attached to it is doing. There is something called reality.There is something called fantasy.Reality is the vacuum tube is 1 meter long between two mirrors once the pulse is started it will travel back and forth between the mirrors striking the top mirror 149,896,229 times the light on top of the vacuum tube will flash.The only thing any observer will see is the light on top of the vacuum tube flash.The reason the only thing any observer will see is the light flash on top of the vacuum is that is the way the light clock has been modified to operate.The vacuum tube is black to the observer and the inside was modified so the pulse could hit the top mirror 149,896,229 times and cause the light on top to flash. The pulse would then strike the bottom mirror 149,896,229 times and cause the light on the bottom to flash. This alternating of the light flashing would continue until the vacuum tube is removed from between the mirrors.Each trip the pulse makes between the two mirrors will take 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds.Therefore 1 second will pass between the light flashes that would be observed by any observer.I know you don't like my water level experiment and refuse to even think about it must less preform it. What are you afraid of?If you try the experiment as I laid out you will see that the water goes 12 inches up in the tube while the tube is being moved 6 inches and then goes down 12 inches in the tube while moving another 6 inches. The water does not travel at a diagonal.The same thing happens in the vacuum tube. The pulse rises 1 meter to the top mirror while the vacuum tube is being moved 1/2 meter and then returns 1 meter to the bottom mirror while the vacuum tube is being moved another 1/2 meter.It takes exactly 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds for the pulse to travel the 1 meter from the bottom mirror to the top mirror. It then takes exactly 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds for the pulse to travel the 1 meter from the top mirror to the bottom mirror.Only in your fantasy can you make the tube grow to 1.1180 meters and swing back and forth to create this motion.In Message 425 you presented this image. For the pulse to travel the way you have it drawn the vacuum tube in the modified light clock would have to be 1.1180 meters long and swing back and forth from strike point to strike point.In reality the tube would stop before it reached the point directly above where the pulse strikes the bottom mirror due to the fact the mirrors are only 1 meter apart and the tube would be 1.1180 meters long. And the pulse travels at 1 meter every 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds in the vacuum tube. No, in your fantasy the pulse travels more than one meter.But you have not explained how the distance increases between the two mirrors to the 1.1180 meters you claim the pulse travels.It does not matter what the vacuum tube is doing the pulse is traveling back and forth in that vacuum at "c". I don't ever remember saying the interior of the tube was black. I did say a black tube.I also said the interior was designed in such a way the pulse could travel from the bottom mirror to the top mirror in 3.33564095198152 nanoseconds. Well the pulse is moving vertically at "c".The vacuum tube is moving horizontally at 1/2 c along with the cycle.I don't see either of them going diagonal and neither would your observer #1. Observer #1 would observe the black vacuum tube moving horizontally in the same direction of the travel of the cycle. Your misunderstanding of reality is not a stupid game.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Son, The car moves 2 feet relative to the Salt Lake Flats. I think that means the frame the car is in moves 2 feet relative to the Salt Lake Flats.So how would the car move 2 feet in its own reference frame?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Taq, But once the pulse is emitted from the laser pen it is no longer attached to the laser pen nor the car.The car that is moving at ".5 c" relative to the Salt Lake Flats is also moving at ".5 c" relative to the pulse as the pulse is moving at zero horizontally relative to the Salt Lake Flats.The pulse is moving at "c" at a 90 angle relative to the Salt Lake Flats.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."