Existence

Hi Son, The car moves 2 feet relative to the Salt Lake Flats. I think that means the frame the car is in moves 2 feet relative to the Salt Lake Flats.So how would the car move 2 feet in its own reference frame?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

No, because the tube is moving as well, because it's attached to the car. The image you're confused about is the path of the light pulse relative to an observer not moving with the car; by trigonometry, the path is longer, yet the light pulse has the same rate of travel to that observer as to the one in the car.Therefore the light clock "ticks" slower for the stationary observer than for the one in the car, proving that time dilates as a function of velocity.Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

Hi, You seem to be on the verge of enlightenment, so let me ask if the pulse is moving up and down and dragged forward how could the path it takes not be longer than 1 meter? It really is just simple geometry as has been pointed out previously by many others. If there is an answer to my question in there I don't see it. Would you like to try again?

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"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. ThompsonAd astra per asperaNihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

So you admit and realize that the car is not moving within it's own reference frame, yes? Since you just admitted it, how would the light pulse do anything BUT go straight up and down? How would it miss whatever is directly above it?

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"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

We are not using the lake's frame of reference. We are using the car's frame of reference. In the car's frame of reference there is no relative motion between the pen laser, detector, and car. None.

Relative to the car, how far do the pen laser and detector move during the transit of the light pulse? The answer is zero. They don't move at all, correct? As I stated above, we are not using the lake's frame of reference. We are using the car's frame of reference.

Since neither the car, nor the pen laser moves in the car's frame of reference, why then would the laser miss it's target?If you answer that it's because it moves relative to the salt lakes, why then is the salt's lake frame of reference more important than the car's frame of reference in determining light's behaviour?

Hi ICANT Okay. I'll serve up some coddling. I apologize in advance for any thing I say that under estimates your knowledge. I expect that I'll probably overestimate. Exactly right, ICANT. But the point is that you cannot cover increased distance without increasing your speed. Your explanation of acceleration is fine. But it is unhelpful to explaining your way out of the contradiction you've created. You cannot travel further than 100 miles in an hour without increasing your speed.You say that the photon is dragged. So the question remains how does the photon follow the dragged path without exceeding the speed "c". You have yet to answer that question. Draw the dragged path, or just acknowledge that I've already done so. Then show that the dragged path is 1 meter or less. But you cannot do that, can you? Yes. I agree with what you say above. But being constrained to stay in a one meter tube does not prevent the photon from traveling more than one meter during the trip from top to bottom of the tube. For example if the tube is moving in a given reference frame, the photon must travel along with the tube while also moving up and down the tube. This must be among the more ridiculous things you've written in this thread. It's surely in the top twenty. I'm seriously contemplating making a list.No ICANT, the tube would not be required to be longer than 1 meter or to swing back and forth. As you've indicated, the tube is vertical. But the tube does not stretch from the lower mirror to a future position of the top mirror.In order to contain the photon while the photon moves along a diagonal, all that is required is that the vertical tube move horizontally at constant speed as the photon moves up and down along the tube. No need for any to and fro tube swinging or stretching. This should be actually an easy thing to picture, so I do not accept that understanding this is beyond you. I'll keep trying. I've got some alternate methods of explaining the phenomenon in mind. I'll try them if I see further denials on your part.Seriously, forget the photon. As you've explained it, the tube must swing back and forth simply to stay attached to the two mirrors. You are simply ignoring the time component. The mirror stretches vertically from the position of the bottom mirror at one given instant in time to the position of the top mirror at the same instant in time. Explain how being black helps contain the photon in the tube. If the interior of the tube is not black, what difference does the color of the tube make to the photon. Why not just admit that the choice of color was hastily made? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

The cycle is going at a constant velocity, therefore there is no force being exerted on the tube. If you were to sever all physical contact between the tube and the cycle it will happily float along with the cycle. Just think of the shuttle putting a satellite into orbit. When the astronauts sever contact between satellite and the shuttle does the satellite suddenly loose all of the velocity of the shuttle compared to the launching pad? Does the satellite shoot away from the shuttle at 25,000 mph as soon as all physical contact is lost?Why do you need a tube to begin with? To block out the Aether wind?

Hi Taq, But once the pulse is emitted from the laser pen it is no longer attached to the laser pen nor the car.The car that is moving at ".5 c" relative to the Salt Lake Flats is also moving at ".5 c" relative to the pulse as the pulse is moving at zero horizontally relative to the Salt Lake Flats.The pulse is moving at "c" at a 90 angle relative to the Salt Lake Flats.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Why would it matter if it is attached or not? How does not being attached to the car remove it from the car's reference frame?Does the light pulse undergo any kind of acceleration? Does its velocity change in any respect?No. Therefore it remains in the same reference frame it started in - the same frame as the rest of the light apparatus. Incorrect. The light pulse has the lateral velocity of the car relative to the salt flats, because the pulse is in the reference frame of the car and not in that of the salt flats.

Hi Taq, The laser pen is attached to the car through the roof and is flush with the exterior. The pole with the detector on top is attached to the roof of the car. Thus they are one unit whatever one does the other does. So you are using the car's frame of reference relative to what?You are not using it relative to the pulse flying throught the vacuum at "c" that was emitted from the laser pen attached to the car.You say you are not using the car's frame of reference relative the the Salt Lake Flats.The only thing you could insert relative to the car's frame of reference that would observe the car's frame at zero would be another car traveling along side of your car at ".5 c".God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

It is not attached to the lake, either. So your are saying that the light pulse takes on the velocity of the salt lake flats in violation of your supposed postulate #2?

Relative to the pen laser and detector. I am measuring the light pulse within the reference frame of the car. Since neither the car, pen laser, or detector are moving relative to each other the light pulse should hit the detector dead on. No, I am not, which makes me wonder why you keep referencing it. All frames are equally valid. Since the other car would have zero velocity relative to the car's frame of reference the driver of the other car would also see the light pulse travel upwards at a perfect 90 degrees and strike the detector.

Hi Son, What laser?There is a pulse emitted from the laser pen so that would be a pulse of light that is traveling at "c" in a vacuum. It is not inside the car nor is it attached to the car. The pulse is traveling at a 90 angle relative to the Salt Lake Flats. The car is traveling at "0.5 c" relative to the Salt Lake Flats. The pulse is not traveling horizontally in the direction the car is traveling relative to the Salt Lake Flats.Therefore the car will move 2 feet relative to the pulse that was emitted at a 90 angle to the travel of the car. Making it impossible for the pulse to strike the detector. The only frame that matters is the one the pulse is in. Nothing affects the pulse's behaviour once it leaves the laser pen. The motion of the car with the pole and laser pen attached to it, nor the Salt Lake Flats.If will travel in the vacuum at "c" in a straight line from where it was emitted until it is scattered, or absorbed by something.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."