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Author Topic:   United States Debt Default
Taz
Member (Idle past 2606 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 106 of 211 (625762)
07-25-2011 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by crashfrog
07-24-2011 12:05 PM


I am absolutely appalled at how average republican voting people can be so hypocritical. Bush expanded the executive power. During his time, they raised the debt ceiling 7 times. And all of that was done without a single voice raising in dissention. Now that we have for the first time a black president, all of the sudden we have the formation of an entire political party for the soul purpose of being against the current president.

Where the hell were all the fiscal conservatives during Bush when he turned the biggest surplus we ever had from the Clinton years to the biggest deficit we ever had? Where the hell were all the fiscal conservatives when they raised the debt ceiling 7 times for Bush?

I am still convinced the tea party and other conservatives are racist at heart. They just hide it behind the political correctness called fiscal conservatism. This was not a problem during the Bush years even though Bush was spending like there was no tomorrow.

Edited by Taz, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by crashfrog, posted 07-24-2011 12:05 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by crashfrog, posted 07-25-2011 3:41 PM Taz has not replied
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 3:55 PM Taz has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 781 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 107 of 211 (625765)
07-25-2011 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taz
07-25-2011 3:10 PM


Where the hell were all the fiscal conservatives during Bush when he turned the biggest surplus we ever had from the Clinton years to the biggest deficit we ever had? Where the hell were all the fiscal conservatives when they raised the debt ceiling 7 times for Bush?

The same place they are now - nonexistent.

Contrary to the rhetoric there's never, ever been a consistent electorate support for actual smaller government or smaller deficits. Even the conservatives around here only claim to be for smaller government and balanced budgets - it's just a tribal identity shibboleth they have to repeat so people know what group they're in.

Conservatives, like always, have supported only that which enriches the elite. That's why Republicans are planning to scuttle the entire American economy to protect tax breaks for corporate jets.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taz, posted 07-25-2011 3:10 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8524
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 108 of 211 (625767)
07-25-2011 3:55 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by Taz
07-25-2011 3:10 PM


I am absolutely appalled at how average republican voting people can be so hypocritical. Bush expanded the executive power. During his time, they raised the debt ceiling 7 times. And all of that was done without a single voice raising in dissention.

Just read an article in a local rag about this. During the Bush years, Cantor et. al voted in a total of 3.7 trillion dollars of increased debt ceiling. Of all the irony, Obama voted against such measures during his tenure in the Senate.

I am still convinced the tea party and other conservatives are racist at heart.

Their fear of "Socialism" is color blind. I don't think it would matter if it were Obama or Kerry. The Tea Party and related movements were built from the hyperpartisanship used during the Bush administration. They are are a product of Fox News, not a racist group, IMHO.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Taz, posted 07-25-2011 3:10 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Taz, posted 07-25-2011 5:11 PM Taq has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 16071
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 109 of 211 (625773)
07-25-2011 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-18-2011 2:09 PM


Paying The MilitaryPerhaps
Perhaps cutting some of the funding is fair and necessary, but the soldiers are at a job serving the country and it is a job that they cannot quit. A people with honor would pay them, per contract at enlistment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-18-2011 2:09 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Taz, posted 07-25-2011 5:12 PM Phat has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2606 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 110 of 211 (625778)
07-25-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Taq
07-25-2011 3:55 PM


Taq writes:

Their fear of "Socialism" is color blind. I don't think it would matter if it were Obama or Kerry. The Tea Party and related movements were built from the hyperpartisanship used during the Bush administration. They are are a product of Fox News, not a racist group, IMHO.


There have been plenty of democratic (communist) presidents in the past. Yet, they created an entire party dedicated to opposing the president just as the first black president took office.

I don't believe in coincidence.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 3:55 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Taq, posted 07-25-2011 5:17 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2606 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 111 of 211 (625780)
07-25-2011 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
07-25-2011 4:40 PM


Re: Paying The MilitaryPerhaps
Didn't you hear? The republicans have been trying to cut medicare and social security in the name of fiscal conservatism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 07-25-2011 4:40 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Phat, posted 07-27-2011 11:24 PM Taz has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 8524
Joined: 03-06-2009


Message 112 of 211 (625782)
07-25-2011 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by Taz
07-25-2011 5:11 PM


There have been plenty of democratic (communist) presidents in the past.

Just to put this aside to bed, I think it has to do with the hyperpartisanship during the Bush years (a la Fox News). That is the difference between the current movement and past movements. We should probably stop this aside here, or start another thread if you are interested in continuing the discussion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Taz, posted 07-25-2011 5:11 PM Taz has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 211 (625898)
07-26-2011 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by AZPaul3
07-22-2011 12:19 AM


Re: By the Nose
From my Message 61
From Crashfrog:

3) As stated the Treasury Secretary has unilateral authority to both mint and issue platinum coinage in any denomination and amount, as granted by Congress in US Code 31.5112(k).

The government can sell off any of the assets it has to raise cash, including it's stock of platinum, gold and silver bullion. It can sell the Washington Monument and the Vietnam Memorial as well.

Note in the section you described the provision that such platinum coins are "legal tender" is missing but is specifically stated in the other coinage sections.

Are you really this dense?

It makes sense to me. Just like they couldn't pay their bill with, say, a chunk of the Washington Monument, they can't just make coins and have them be legal tender.

So what makes something "legal tender" and how does that happen?

One of CF's links says this:

quote:
Congress provided the authority, in legislation passed in 1996, for the US Mint to create platinum bullion or proof platinum coins with arbitrary fiat face value having no relationship to the value of the platinum used in these coins. These coins are legal tender.

Really!? That doesn't seem right but I don't know. Any idea?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by AZPaul3, posted 07-22-2011 12:19 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2011 1:56 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 114 of 211 (625899)
07-26-2011 10:53 AM


So Where Are We Now?
So what is the latest? Still no deal (as I understand it)

Is the United States going to default on it's debt and plunge the global financial system into a crisis of never-seen-before proportions?

What is now likely to happen?
What could happen (worst case but reasonably possible scenario)?
What are the consequences?
Who can we blame?


Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Taz, posted 07-26-2011 11:52 AM Straggler has not replied
 Message 116 by AZPaul3, posted 07-26-2011 11:58 AM Straggler has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2606 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 115 of 211 (625906)
07-26-2011 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Straggler
07-26-2011 10:53 AM


Re: So Where Are We Now?
Like creationists repubs are really good at obfuscating the matter. They shifted from demanding 400 billion in cuts with no revenue to 900 to 3000 and then walked out of negotiations, and then somehow managed to blame Obama.

Congrats republicans for turning me from being against Obama to for him.
PS still a disgruntled Hillary supporter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2011 10:53 AM Straggler has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6833
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 116 of 211 (625909)
07-26-2011 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Straggler
07-26-2011 10:53 AM


Re: So Where Are We Now?
Is the United States going to default on it's debt and plunge the global financial system into a crisis of never-seen-before proportions?

Probably not. The political gamesmanship being played is a US form of playing "chicken" to see who blinks first. Both will blink soon to avoid default.

However, there is a hardcore group of republican freshman representatives in the House who believe that pushing the situation into default would actually be a good thing. Not to be mean but to scare some fiscal discipline into the system ... on their terms (spending cuts, no tax increase) and their terms only. How far they can push the House leadership remains to be seen.

What is now likely to happen?

A short term debt ceiling raise coupled with some spending cuts before the Aug 2 deadline meaning we will be doing this again in about 6 months. Oh, joy.

What could happen (worst case but reasonably possible scenario)?

No debt ceiling raise by Aug 2. Default on domestic obligations first. Treasury would use all possible funds to pay the Bonds delaying Social Security, Veteran's, Medicare/Medicaid, Tax refund, etc, payments. This "shock" should cause one hell of a ruckus and even the most hardcore will give in to at least a short-term debt ceiling raise before they are tarred and feathered.

Just don't expect any $billion Platinum "Geithners" to hit the system.

What are the consequences?

Another dip in the US economy, maybe into mild recession, with a similar impact on other world economies. If this happens expect the European and Asian banks and governments to pump money into their economies to stave off the worst slumps.

Who can we blame?

Americans ... all of us.

Edited by AZPaul3, : spelin, agin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2011 10:53 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2011 12:55 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied
 Message 120 by crashfrog, posted 07-26-2011 2:01 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member (Idle past 283 days)
Posts: 10332
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 117 of 211 (625927)
07-26-2011 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by AZPaul3
07-26-2011 11:58 AM


Re: So Where Are We Now?
AZ writes:

A short term debt ceiling raise coupled with some spending cuts before the Aug 2 deadline meaning we will be doing this again in about 6 months. Oh, joy.

And if that happens won't there be a downgrade on the US credit rating?

And if that happens won't it plunge the global financial system into some sort of a crisis anyway?

I still don't understand who these credit rating agencies are or why they wield so much power.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by AZPaul3, posted 07-26-2011 11:58 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by cavediver, posted 07-26-2011 1:44 PM Straggler has replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 2958 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


(1)
Message 118 of 211 (625939)
07-26-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Straggler
07-26-2011 12:55 PM


Re: So Where Are We Now?
I still don't understand who these credit rating agencies are or why they wield so much power.

X wants to borrow money from you. You are happy lending money but you recognise that it involves a risk. You decide to charge an interest rate based upon the level of risk: the more likely X is to default on his obligation to you, the higher the interest rate you charge. How big a risk is X? What is X's past history? What is X's current financial situation? What possible future events could have an impact on X's future financial situation? You could work all this out for yourself, or using your own team of analysts. Or you use a credit rating agency who has done all the work for you - they will give you a credit rating and you can decide what interest rate to charge based upon that rating.

If X is Joe Bloggs come to buy a TV from you on credit, then your CRA is likely to be Experian, or similar. If X is the USA come to find funding for an invasion of Iran, then your CRA is likely to be Moody's.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2011 12:55 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2011 2:04 PM cavediver has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 781 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 119 of 211 (625942)
07-26-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by New Cat's Eye
07-26-2011 10:45 AM


Re: By the Nose
Just like they couldn't pay their bill with, say, a chunk of the Washington Monument, they can't just make coins and have them be legal tender.

Where do you think coins come from, CS, and why you're allowed to spend them? How does it always happen to be the case that there's enough dollars to go around, even though the population of the US keeps growing?

How could the Treasury Department, the only body legally allowed to print money, print money that was counterfeit? That's what AZPaul is saying is going on, here.

So what makes something "legal tender" and how does that happen?

The Treasury prints or strikes it such that it says "legal tender" on it. Contra AZPaul, the Federal Reserve doesn't have a monopoly on the creation of dollars and never has. It has a monopoly on reserve notes, which is the predominant form of money in the United States, but it's not the only possible form. If, like most people, you have some $2 bills socked away somewhere, then you're the holder of a Treasury note, which is also a kind of completely legal dollar, the number of which allowed to be in circulation is determined by statute.

Unless they're coins. Coins issued by the Treasury aren't reserve notes, they're fiat money. A $1 trillion coin struck by the Treasury has that value because the Treasury says so. That's what "fiat currency" means; that's what Buz is always complaining about, that our dollars are dollars not because they're backed by a dollar's-worth of something, but because the Treasury department says they're dollars. And everybody agrees to play along.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2011 10:45 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by Jon, posted 07-26-2011 3:40 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 131 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-26-2011 4:15 PM crashfrog has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 781 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 120 of 211 (625943)
07-26-2011 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by AZPaul3
07-26-2011 11:58 AM


Re: So Where Are We Now?
How far they can push the House leadership remains to be seen.

They can push it all the way. Boehner can't deliver a debt ceiling bill without their votes, and they don't want to vote for anything Boehner comes away from the table with.

There will only be a debt bill if Eric Cantor and his caucus decide that not busting the debt ceiling is more important than the power of the tea party caucus. Maybe that'll happen. (Frankly the fact that you think it will happen makes me think that it probably won't.)

Just don't expect any $billion Platinum "Geithners" to hit the system.

I never said that they would, only that they could and should.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by AZPaul3, posted 07-26-2011 11:58 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
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