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Author Topic:   Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2589 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 31 of 479 (626236)
07-27-2011 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Taq
07-27-2011 7:58 PM


Taq writes:

What really bothers me is the hypocracy. Remember the mosque that was being built near "Ground Zero"? If christians want the benefit of religious tolerance they should try to exercise it first.

And Taq hits the bullseye.

Of course, refusing to recognize the rights of people of other faiths (or no faith) makes sense if your religion is founded on the belief that everyone else is wrong.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 185 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 32 of 479 (626238)
07-27-2011 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ZenMonkey
07-27-2011 11:22 PM


Who decides
Of course, refusing to recognize the rights of people of other faiths (or no faith) makes sense if your religion is founded on the belief that everyone else is wrong.

But aren't the some 4,200 world religions almost all based on the idea that theirs is the one true religion, and the others are somehow lacking?

And aren't the some 40,000+ denominations of Christianity also based on the idea that they are right and the other 39,999+ are wrong somewhere?

Too bad they don't have some empirical means of determining which is right and which is wrong. They could straighten out this mess!


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ZenMonkey, posted 07-27-2011 11:22 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 479 (626243)
07-28-2011 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by AZPaul3
07-27-2011 10:26 PM


Has anyone else tried?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by AZPaul3, posted 07-27-2011 10:26 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 39 days)
Posts: 3508
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 34 of 479 (626244)
07-28-2011 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Coyote
07-27-2011 11:34 PM


Re: Who decides
Too bad they don't have some empirical means of determining which is right and which is wrong. They could straighten out this mess!

The problem, of course, is that empiricism leads inevitably to the conclusion that they are all wrong, so that just won't work.


Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat

It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate

...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist


This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 35 of 479 (626246)
07-28-2011 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
07-28-2011 12:30 AM


From Mod's Message 11:

quote:
Plaintiff American Atheists opposed inclusion of a cross on the grounds
that other religious groups were not given the opportunity for a similar faithbased
memorial at the site of an American tragedy.

quote:
On multiple occasions, plaintiff American Atheists publicly offered to
provide a memorial for the September 11 Memorial and Museum, at its own
cost, to represent the approximately 500 non-religious victims of the attack
on the World Trade Center.
Plaintiff American Atheists never received a response.

quote:
No other religious or non-religious group has been permitted a
memorial.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 12:30 AM New Cat's Eye has not yet responded

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 36 of 479 (626250)
07-28-2011 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Coyote
07-27-2011 11:34 PM


Re: Who decides
Too bad they don't have some empirical means of determining which is right and which is wrong.

They do --- they could ask me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Coyote, posted 07-27-2011 11:34 PM Coyote has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3815
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 37 of 479 (626282)
07-28-2011 6:38 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by New Cat's Eye
07-28-2011 12:30 AM


Attitude
Has anyone else tried?

Apparently, a number of times and they were ignored.

A government agency putting up a christian cross, ignoring requests from citizens they serve for equal consideration.

You think this is proper?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 12:30 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 10:10 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 479 (626292)
07-28-2011 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by AZPaul3
07-28-2011 6:38 AM


Re: Attitude
Has anyone else tried?

Apparently, a number of times and they were ignored.

Did they really? It says they "publically offered"... Maybe the defendents simply didn't see the offering? I dunno.

A government agency putting up a christian cross, ignoring requests from citizens they serve for equal consideration.

You think this is proper?

I don't have a problem with religious symbols on government property by the government.

But to allow one and disallow any others is definately wrong. If so, then they've got a good case.

I'm not sure that's what's happening here, and it looks to me like this could still be frivolous. Like they're making a mountain out of a molehill as part of their agenda of "the total, absolute separation of government and religion", which I don't support.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by AZPaul3, posted 07-28-2011 6:38 AM AZPaul3 has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 07-28-2011 10:27 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 39 of 479 (626295)
07-28-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by New Cat's Eye
07-28-2011 10:10 AM


Re: Attitude
I don't have a problem with religious symbols on government property by the government.

Of course not: you're religious and of the same religion in question.

which I don't support.

Of course not: you're religious and your religion is one of the popular/accepted ones in the country.

Do you think other people of different/non religions feel the same way? Apparently not. But that's ok. As long as christians get their way, everyone else should just shut up, right?


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 10:10 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 10:32 AM hooah212002 has responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 40 of 479 (626297)
07-28-2011 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by hooah212002
07-28-2011 10:27 AM


Re: Attitude
I don't have a problem with religious symbols on government property by the government.

Of course not: you're religious and of the same religion in question.

No, I'm not religious and there's nothing wrong with it.

which I don't support.

Of course not: you're religious and your religion is one of the popular/accepted ones in the country.

No, I'm not religious and it doesn't matter what religion it is.

Do you think other people of different/non religions feel the same way? Apparently not. But that's ok.

I don't think anyone should care, really.

As long as christians get their way, everyone else should just shut up, right?

Nope. Strike six.

Get back under your bridge, troll.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by hooah212002, posted 07-28-2011 10:27 AM hooah212002 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by hooah212002, posted 07-28-2011 10:36 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

  
hooah212002
Member
Posts: 3183
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 41 of 479 (626298)
07-28-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by New Cat's Eye
07-28-2011 10:32 AM


Re: Attitude
Get back under your bridge, troll.

You just can't help but call people names, can you? How old are you?

No, I'm not religious and there's nothing wrong with it.

Oh? So you're an atheist now? Might want to change the name to "Atheist Scientist" then.

I don't think anyone should care, really.

And that's your opinion.....

The simple fact of the matter is is that they are using a religious symbol to honor the people who died. There are people who are offended by that symbol (myself included). The government should not have a stake in putting up religious symbols. If you don't care, that's fine (that's what great about this country: you can voice your opinion). But if you want religious symbols put up, they NEED to be privately funded.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.


"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 10:32 AM New Cat's Eye has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 10:41 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 42 of 479 (626299)
07-28-2011 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by hooah212002
07-28-2011 10:36 AM


Re: Attitude
You just can't help but call people names, can you?

Sure I can, as exemplified by all my other posts that don't call people names. You started with addressing me, the person, instead of addressing my argument.

You just can't address arguments without addressing the person, can you?

Oh? So you're an atheist now? Might want to change the name to "Atheist Scientist" then.

No, I'm still a theist.

I don't think anyone should care, really.

And that's your opinion.....

Indeed, and its shows that you were wrong about me. But you really shouldn't be making claims about me in the first place, ass.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by hooah212002, posted 07-28-2011 10:36 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2307 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


(1)
Message 43 of 479 (626300)
07-28-2011 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
07-27-2011 7:23 PM


hooah writes:

You didn't read Modulus' post, did you?
quote:
________________________________________
The September 11 Memorial and Museum will be on a site owned by the
Port Authority. Thus, the Memorial and Museum and its exhibits are a
government action.
________________________________________
quote:
________________________________________
The September 11 Memorial and Museum will be largely funded with
money from the government. Accordingly, actions taken by the September
11 Memorial and Museum also constitute governmental action.

Yeah I did.

I also notice the words will be, which suggests that what is presently (a cross at a location), that will in the future be a government property.

Are you suggesting that if the government purchases land that has a religious symbol on it, then the government is supporting a religion?

I wonder why they are attacking this instead of the more obvious like St. Pauls Church? Maybe its because they are shit disturbers, and this is some frivolous BS?

Information on the National Park that is a Christian Church:
http://en.wikipedia.org/...27s_Church_National_Historic_Site

http://www.nps.gov/sapa/index.htm

Dr. Adequate writes:

Anyone who didn't recognize the Memorial And Remonstrance could look it up.


So the need to quote anyone, is not necessary here because anyone can look it up, got it, thanks.
"Hardly" government support of religion? Is that like being not very pregnant?

Poor word choice on my part, It is not government support of religion.
The people who wanted to build a big cross on what is effectively the grave of many Jews and atheists and Muslims were shit disturbers. And this is the shit that they have disturbed.

The cross was already built, it was moved there. I bet the Jews do not care, and if they wanted a Jew symbol, then I am sure they could have one, they get whatever they want here. They are far to intelligent and crafty to make a stink like this.
I thought atheists were people without religion, yet this groups is obviously anti-religion.
And to do you justice, you couldn't have come up with a more ridiculously inept comparison if you'd tried with both hands for a week.

Thanks

The WBC are the people who wave signs saying "God Hates America" at the graves of patriots, aren't they? Which is different how from building a cross on the grave of a Jew? True, the cross is more permanent, but I don't see how this palliates the offense.

Just more shit disturbers. It wasnt an in depth comparison. I dont recall the Jews complaining about this, but why would they, they can have a Jewish memorial if they want to, no one is stopping them.

This is about a piece of the original building, used to make a symbol, and some assholes trying to keep it off some property, you have to really grab at straws to make this into government support of religion, as there are much better arguments and examples, such as the national park above that is a church.

I live in Arlington, Virginia. We have a large cemetery here, it is run by the government. It is called Arlington National Cemetery.
Here is a picture of it:


Wow look at all those flags and all those crosses. The outrage!!! OMFG!!! Why isnt the American Atheists group attacking this obvious government support of religion on state property?

This whole thread is a frivolous joke.

noggin writes:

Is it an icon for one particular religion? yes.
Is it in a public park owned by and maintained by the government which is paid for by the people? yes.
That's government supported religion.

Suspended again? Shocking!!!

I have two examples that are more what you would call government supported religion, than two I-beams made into a cross. Heck our money says in God we Trust on it. Yet this piece is not frivolous!?!

wow


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 2224 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
Message 44 of 479 (626307)
07-28-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by hooah212002
07-28-2011 10:36 AM


Suggestions or complaints
If anyone would like to make a suggestion or a complaint can do so here.

quote:
You may use either of the following two methods to submit a report:

Within the United States, Guam, Puerto Rico and Canada, dial 888-332-3580 (Toll-free)
or
Select the "Make a Report" link on the top of this web page.


It would be nice to see some evidence of another religious group being denied placement of their star of david ect...It would go a long ways toward the atheist case.

quote:
Museum officials said the cross was being displayed not because of its religious value but the role it played in the aftermath of the attacks.

"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artifacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement.


It seems from this statement they are confused. If it is not being displayed for its religious value then why would the president Joe Daniels mention the spiritual comfort it provided. If it truly isn't meant to represent religion then flip it 90 degrees maybe. It seems it would be easier just to make a public statement saying they would be willing to allow other faiths or non- faiths to display their icons also, seems like an easy way to appease all involved if they don't have a Christian agenda.


"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson

Ad astra per aspera

Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by hooah212002, posted 07-28-2011 10:36 AM hooah212002 has acknowledged this reply

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16085
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 45 of 479 (626308)
07-28-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Artemis Entreri
07-28-2011 10:53 AM


So the need to quote anyone, is not necessary here because anyone can look it up, got it, thanks.

I wonder what that means.

Poor word choice on my part, It is not government support of religion.

'Tis so.

The cross was already built, it was moved there. I bet the Jews do not care, and if they wanted a Jew symbol, then I am sure they could have one, they get whatever they want here. They are far to intelligent and crafty to make a stink like this.

How much do you bet?

Two Jewish plaintiffs say they "find the cross, a symbol of Christianity, offensive and repugnant to their beliefs, culture, and traditions, and allege that the symbol marginalizes them as American citizens."

I thought atheists were people without religion, yet this groups is obviously anti-religion.

Or pro-First Amendment.

Oh, noes, the anti-religion!

"What we're looking for is a remedy that honours everyone equally, with a religion-neutral display, or display of equal size and prominence." Silverman said American Atheists has offered to pay for such a display and has several ideas to represent all religions such as a firefighter carrying out a victim.

... adding, "also we'd like to start throwing Christians to the lions again like in the good old days" ... oh, wait, I made that up.

Really, how butthurt can you get about this? Should we have a whaaambulance standing by just in case?

Wow look at all those flags and all those crosses. The outrage!!! OMFG!!! Why isnt the American Atheists group attacking this obvious government support of religion on state property?

Two reasons. Firstly, whatever the religious right may think, the American flag is not in fact a religious symbol.

Secondly, the crosses are on the graves of Christian soldiers. It's optional. Jews get a Star of David. Muslims get a crescent and star. Mormons get the Angel Moroni. This is fine, it's parallel to what the atheists are asking for at the 9/11 memorial. If instead the Army put a cross on the grave of every soldier regardless of religious affiliation, you can bet they would indeed be having the shit sued out of them --- and surely even you can see that that's right.

So why not extend the same courtesy to the victims of 9/11?

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-28-2011 10:53 AM Artemis Entreri has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by New Cat's Eye, posted 07-28-2011 11:36 AM Dr Adequate has responded
 Message 50 by Artemis Entreri, posted 07-28-2011 12:21 PM Dr Adequate has responded

  
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