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Author | Topic: Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Jon Inactive Member |
What is the biblical support for the idea of the 'Rapture'?
A while ago the glorified DJ Howard Camping predicted a Rapture to occur on May 21 of this year, with a final coming of Jesus to take place several months later in October. The prediction itself, of course, was totally unfounded malarkey. But what about the idea behind it? Is there any biblical support for a pre-tribulation Rapture?
quote: Over at Rapture Ready, several supposed citations in support of a pre-tribulation Rapture are given in the first few of their paragraphs; here are some of them:
quote: quote: quote: quote: quote: As should be clear, none of these really appear to support the notion of a pre-tribulation Rapture. But are there others? Are there other passages that actually support the idea of a pre-tribulation Rapture as marketed by folk like Camping? If so, it would sure be interesting to know what they are. Jon__________ Wills, G. (2007) Head and Heart: American Christianities. New York: Penguin Press. Edited by Jon, : passage quotes; clarityLove your enemies!
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Might as well have the verses in the message.
Adminnemooseus
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Jon Inactive Member |
Emended
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Adminnemooseus Administrator Posts: 3974 Joined: |
Thread copied here from the Biblical Support for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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Artemis Entreri  Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days) Posts: 1194 From: Northern Virginia Joined: |
i think you have to9 be a protestant to understand that stuff. makes no sense to me.
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Most evangelicals are pre-tribulationists. They quote mine a few verses out of context in order to propagate this falsehood.
One must corroborate all scriptures so as to follow a sequence of prophesied events in order to arrive at what scripture teaches on this. One sequential order of events debunking the pre-tribbers is Mark 13:24-28 in Jesus's Olivet Discourse which clearly has the gathering up of the saints from earth to heaven after the tribulation time. Other scriptures clearly corroborate this. I don't have time now to cover these, but perhaps when I get to it. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future. |
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
As should be clear, none of these really appear to support the notion of a pre-tribulation Rapture. But are there others? Are there other passages that actually support the idea of a pre-tribulation Rapture as marketed by folk like Camping? If we establish up front that Harold Camping is irrelevant to the subject, then I'll take on the challenge of demonstrating the ground for such a hope. But if you are expecting a discussion about Harold Campingism I'll pass. I didn't encourage Camping to go out there and predict that stuff. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
If we establish up front that Harold Camping is irrelevant to the subject, then I'll take on the challenge of demonstrating the ground for such a hope. But if you are expecting a discussion about Harold Campingism I'll pass. Camping was an example; you're not required to discuss him and you're certainly not required to defend him. I'd very much like to hear your own defense of the a pre-tribulation rapture based on scriptures. So, please, if you would be so kind... JonLove your enemies!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
Camping was an example; you're not required to discuss him and you're certainly not required to defend him. I appreciate that. Thanks
I'd very much like to hear your own defense of the a pre-tribulation rapture based on scriptures. So, please, if you would be so kind... Okay. But I think I will deal with a few popular misconceptions as a way of introduction. When it comes to the subject of the catching away from the earth of believers, or "Rapture" one of the most common mistakes is this: Bibles students expect that any rapture must of necessarily include ALL of the believers, ie. the entire church in one rapture. Because of this assumption they are able to find passages which indicate a pre-tribulation rapture on one hand, and others are able to demonstrate a post-tribulation rapture. Both schools have some very legitimate points. But because they assume that any rapture must be of the entire Body of believers they must uphold those passages which support their view and suppress the passages which contradict. So if one is convinced that the whole church must go up pre-tribulation style, one will emphasize those clear passages. And when other contradictory passages are shown him. these he must twist, suppress, re-interpret is questionable ways. Conversely if one is convinced that the whole church must be raptured post-tribulation style, he will point out the supporting passages. Those passages which seemed to contradict, he must suppress, ignore, discard, twist, or reinterpret. The assumption both schools is that there can only be one rapture to include the whole body of the church on earth at one time. There are godly Christians in both schools of understanding. And both are partially correct. There is another way to go about solving the problem. And I think it is the most logical and scriptural. That is the understanding of selective rapture. Some saints will be taken before the great tribulation starts. And some will be taken after or towards the end of the great tribulation. That is all I will write in this post.Do you understand what I have just said ? You don't have to agree. But do you understand me so far? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Jon writes: But what about the idea behind it? Is there any biblical support for a pre-tribulation Rapture? Dunno. But I've got the (dubious?) honour of being the EvC board member who probably lives closest to the source of the idea. John Darby's pulpit is only about 15 minutes drive from my house.
quote: Wikipedia
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Jon Inactive Member |
Some saints will be taken before the great tribulation starts. And some will be taken after or towards the end of the great tribulation. But this still involves the same problems; you still have the notion of a pre-tribulation raptureno matter how incomplete the eventthat requires supporting by the biblical texts. For the moment I'm not concerned in the texts that support a post-tribulation rapture, or a mid-tribulation rapture, or any other raptureagain, no matter how incompletebesides the pre-tribulation one. In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture?
But do you understand me so far? Of course; and I hope before you go any further that you'll help me understand some of the points I had difficulty with. JonLove your enemies!
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined: |
In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture? 1.) Rev. 3:10 2.) The entire 14th chapter of Revelation. 3.) The 12th and 13th chapter of Revelation. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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Jon Inactive Member |
Jon writes: In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture? Rev. 3:10 How?
Jon writes: In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture? The entire 14th chapter of Revelation. How?
Jon writes: In your mind, what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture? The 12th and 13th chapter of Revelation. How?Love your enemies!
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Jon writes: what passages support the idea of a pre-tribulation (partial) rapture? There are none which support a partial end time rapture of Christian era believers. If one wants to isolate phrases from any written literature or historical records one can allege support for anything one wants to support. No support is such void of context. If one thinks otherwise it's up to the one to cite it in conjunction with context. Edited by Buzsaw, : Clarify message Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
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jaywill Member (Idle past 1941 days) Posts: 4519 From: VA USA Joined:
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Revelation 3:10 is a promise attached to a condition. Since the condition has been satisfied the reward of the promise is to be dispensed.
"Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth." 1.) The promise is to keep these Christians "out of the hour of trial". It is not merely to keep them through the trial or to keep them from the trial. Rather it is a promise to keep them out of the very hour of the trial. This must mean to be taken out of the world. 2.) The promise is not automatic to the church universal. It is a promise for to those who have "kept the word of My endurance". It is therefore conditional. That implies that a selection is involved. So since a selection is involved according to who the Lord deems as having kept the word of His endurance, it must be a partial rapture, involving a remnant rather than the entire church. 3.) The trial must be the great tribulation. It is the trial which "is about to come upon the whole inhhabited earth, to try them" . This should indicate the great tribulation -
"For at that time there will be great tribulation, such as has not occured from the beginning of the world until now, nor shall by any means ever occur. And unless those daus had been cut short, no flesh would be saved ..." (Matt. 24:21,22a) To be kept out of the the very hour of this world wide trial is to be taken out of the earth before the hour begins. The passage is about a pre-great tribulation rapture. Revelation 12 concerns the rapture of a corporate manchild followed by 42 months of great persecution of those saints left upon the earth. I will not go into a full exposition of Revelation 12 now. But it should be noted that the manchild who is raptured is a collective unit, a collective rather than an individual person. This is proved by the plural pronouns "they", "their", "them" plus the word "brothers" in verses 10 and 11. Briefly then, after the corporate man-child is caught up to God and to His throne (12:5), these words are uttered in verse 10,11:
"And I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, Now has come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ, for the accuser of our brothers has been cast down, who accuses them before our God day and night. And THEY overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of THEIR testimony, and THEY loved not THEIR soul-life even unto death." (12:10,11) The words "brothers", "them", "they", "their", "they" point back to the man-child who was "caught up to God and to His throne". It is a pre-tribulation rapture because the result of the man-child's being caught up is the expulsion of Satan down to the earth to be limited in his movement to that earthly sphere alone:
"Therefore be glad, O heavens and those who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and to the sea because the devil has come down to you and has great rage, knowing that he has only a short time." (v.12) Those in heaven have reason to rejoice, including the raptured corporate man-child. But at the same time the earth is to face WOE. This is the woe of the devil's coming down to be limited to the earth, and only having a "short time" left to damage God's people and oppose God's purpose. This "short time" is the great tribulation. And it is the short time of the forty-two months that the beast has to speak great things and blasphemies (Rev. 13:5). It is also the "short time" of the 1,260 days which the dragon of Satan persecutes the woman who brought forth the man-child who still remains upon the earth.
" ... and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, whre she has a plcae there prepared by God so that they might nourish her there a thousand twohundred and sixty days." (v.5b,6) The sequence of events prove that this rapture of the collective unit called the man-child, is a pre-great tribulation rapture. In fact this rapture is really a CAUSE for the great tribulation to start. For it is at the rapture of this man-child that the serving angels of the saints like Michael and his angels war in heaven and drive Satan the accuser finally out of heavenlies. The third evidence is in Revelation 14. Here again I do not launch a full exposition. But it should be noted that the terms firstfruits (Rev. 14:4) ) and "harvest" (14:15) strongly imply TIMING. Firstfruits are taken up to God first as a remant or minority. Latter a general harvest is taken up in rapture. The place of their taking differs and the time of their taking differs. First firstfruits ripen early and are raptured. Following this the general majority or harvest is ripened and raptured (14:14-16). In chapter 14 in between the appearance of the firstfruits in heaven and the taking up of the harvest to the cloud are a general summary of the events of the great tribulation. This indicates that the firstfruits are taken prior to the start of the great tribulation and the harvest majority is taken towards the end. Below notice how events # 1 and # 6 are respectively before the discribed great tribulation and at its conclusion. The following was copied from another discussion I had.
There are two pre-tribulation raptures from Revelation not including the promise of 3:10. One is of overcoming saints who have died. And the other is of overcoming saints who are living just before the great tribulation. Both raptures will take place around the same pre-tribulation time. 1.) The Manchild in Rev. 12. (Those overcomers who need resurrection)2.) The Firstfruits in Rev 14. (Those overcomers who are physically alive) In this post I will focus on the Firstfruits as a pre-tribulation rapture. The focus of the rapture of the Manchild is military. The focus of the rapture of the Firstfruits is the Father's satisfaction. The Manchild's rapture is a strategic move to tip the balance of spiritual battle in the heavenlies, finally allowing the good angels to drive Satan and his angels to the earth for good. Satan can no longer appear before God accusing His saints, as is seen in the book of Job. The Firstfruits' rapture seems purely for the satisfaction of the Father. That is His pleasure that in the end times, some living, following the Lamb where ever He may go. They sing a unique song which no one can learn. And that song signifies the special experience that they have. And that is of living on the earth and going right up into the third heavens by the pleasingness of their spiritual walk. "These early overcomers will be the first-ripe ones in God's field. Hence, they will be reaped before the harvest as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. The harvest will be reaped later, in vv. 14-16. This means that the overcomers will be raptured to the heavens before the harvest, just as firstfruits of the good land were reaped and brought into the temple of God before the harvest (Lev. 23:10-11; Exo. 23:19). The event recorded in vv.6-13, all of which will take place during the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21), indicate clearly and prove strongly that the first overcomers, the firstfruits in vv. 1-5, will be raptured before the great tribulation, and the harvest in vv. 14-16, composed of the majority of the believers, will be raptured at the end of the great tribulation. [footnote 4(2) of Rev. 14. Recovery Version Bible ] I can understand people considering ch. 14 as a chronological continuation of ch. 13. However, I think it is better to consider 13 as connected to 12 and 14 as a corner vision communicating these matters:
1.) Pretribulation rapture of Firstfruits (14:1-5) 2.) Angelic announcement of the eternal gospel to fear the Creator (vv.6-7) 3.) The fall of religious Babylon (v.8) 4.) Warning against worship of Antichrist during great tribulation (vv.9-12) 5.) Blessing on martyrs during great tribulation (v. 13) 6.) Harvest of believers near the end of the great tribulation (vv.14-16) 7.) Gathering of grapes (evildoers) at end of great tribulation (vv.17-20) Chapter 14 is therefore a concise summary of the end times bounded on one end by a pretribulation rapture and on the other end with a end tribulation rapture and the battle of Armageddon. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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