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Member (Idle past 4464 days) Posts: 990 From: Burlington, NC, USA Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Group of atheists has filed a lawsuit | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dr Adequate Member Posts: 16113 Joined: |
"The mission of the National September 11 Memorial Museum is to tell the history of 9/11 through historic artefacts like the World Trade Center cross. This steel remnant became a symbol of spiritual comfort for the thousands of recovery workers who toiled at ground zero, as well as for people around the world," museum president Joe Daniels said in a statement. And that is something to be said for it. On the other hand, why refuse the atheists' offer to provide them with a non-religious memorial? It's not an unreasonable request.
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Modulous Member (Idle past 303 days) Posts: 7801 From: Manchester, UK Joined: |
Okay, I wouldn't call that "total, absolute seperation from religion". The AA hasn't responded so I don't know, but I could just be reading them as being more strict than they actually are. I'm not sure how something being secular without exception isn't 'total, absolute separation' of politics and religion. I think you are reading them as saying something they aren't. They aren't saying all politicians should be atheists, or non-practicing or. I'm not really sure what other notion you might have had in mind. If you want to have an idea as to the American Atheist's viewpoint, you might like to look to Thomas Jefferson, whom they cite as inspiration for their position on church and state.
quote: The American Atheists believe this wall should be total and absolute. That is, no exceptions given in some cases here and there. No laissez-faire attitudes towards the wall. The wall is absolute, and should not be crossed. Government should not advocate a religion, shouldn't show favour to a religion, have any opinions implicit or explicit regarding any particular religion. Politicians are free to do these things, but not as part of government action. Opening a museum that essentially commemorates the dead, on government property can be construed as government action. And if that action even implies favour of one religion, the American Atheists believe it is proper to call it out and elicit change - or at least that's kind of their mission statement.
So the cross, itself, isn't really a problem then? There might be a secular purpose for displaying the cross, but it does also seem to be showing favour to a particular religious group, and about that religious group's focus of spiritual attention is of some kind of special importance to the WTC site. You have to admit, claiming that some religious people found religious significance in the cross after the disaster as a secular reason to have it at the museum is pushing things a little. Edited by Modulous, : illicit change? Is that what drug dealers give?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
not because of its religious value
became a symbol of spiritual comfort As a christian, is a star of david or a crescent moon "spiritually comforting" to you in any aspect? I fail to see any relevance to your question (other than to troll me)... spiritual comfort is not religionspiritual is not non-secular
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
On the other hand, why refuse the atheists' offer to provide them with a non-religious memorial? It's not an unreasonable request. I haven't seen that they've refused it, but yeah, it isn't unreasonable.
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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There might be a secular purpose for displaying the cross, but it does also seem to be showing favour to a particular religious group, and about that religious group's focus of spiritual attention is of some kind of special importance to the WTC site. If they want to include a chunk of metal because it was important to the rescuers then it shouldn't matter why it was important to them. It shows favor to the rescuers, not to the religious group.
You have to admit, claiming that some religious people found religious significance in the cross after the disaster as a secular reason to have it at the museum is pushing things a little. Maybe a little, but not enough to get rid of it.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 1120 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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A number of non-christians have spoken out that they do not find any comfort from this symbol.
The cross is a symbol of xianity. The only people who would find any significance from a cross are christians. Saying it is a spiritual symbol and not a religious one is ludicrous. Does any other spiritual group of people find spiritual anything in the cross? It is "spiritual" for christians. I ask again: do you, as a self defined christian, find spiritual comfort in the star of david or crescent moon? A simple yes or no will suffice.
(other than to troll me)... That word...I don't think it means what you think it means....."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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A number of non-christians have spoken out that they do not find any comfort from this symbol. And that's irrelevant. So what? I don't like strawberry icecreme but I don't bitch about the parlor having it....
The only people who would find any significance from a cross are christians. Not necessarily.
Saying it is a spiritual symbol and not a religious one is ludicrous. In your opinion, but not in mine.
Does any other spiritual group of people find spiritual anything in the cross? I don't know, and it doesn't matter. The cross was important to the rescuers and that makes it worth having at the site.
I ask again: do you, as a self defined christian, find spiritual comfort in the star of david or crescent moon? A simple yes or no will suffice. Yes. Now explain how it is in any way relevant to the debate here?
That word...I don't think it means what you think it means..... You're not contributing to or furthering the debate. You're trying to "catch" people with questions that are not relevant to the debate. The only reason I can think of is to get a rise out of them. That's trolling 101.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 1120 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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And that's irrelevant. So what? I don't like strawberry icecreme but I don't bitch about the parlor having it.... If your religion was only as important to you as what flavor ice cream you like, why hold it so dear to you or at all? I am quite certain that a large number of other people are a bit more serious about their choice of deity and how they get their "spiritual comfort".
Not necessarily. Perhaps you could name another group, then, that does find any spiritual anything in the cross?
I don't know, and it doesn't matter. On the contrary. Everyone but you sees the cross as an inherantly religious symbol. Using said symbol to memoralize anyone does an extreme disservice to those who do not follow that faith or "spirituality".
The cross was important to the rescuers and that makes it worth having at the site. Yea, the christian ones. What about the other people?"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
You didn't explain why your question, that I answered, was relevant to this debate. You were just trolling, weren't you?
If your religion was only as important to you as what flavor ice cream you like, why hold it so dear to you or at all? I am quite certain that a large number of other people are a bit more serious about their choice of deity and how they get their "spiritual comfort". What does that have to do with anything?
Perhaps you could name another group, then, that does find any spiritual anything in the cross? Why does it have to be a religious group? And aren't people free to find spiritual confort in anything they want? I'm not seeing how this is relevant.
On the contrary. Everyone but you sees the cross as an inherantly religious symbol. I do see it as inherantly religious, but realize that that is irrelevant because that's not the reason they are putting it there. It passes the Lemon Test, it doesn't matter that its a cross.
Using said symbol to memoralize anyone does an extreme disservice to those who do not follow that faith or "spirituality". How? And what makes it so extreme?
Yea, the christian ones. What about the other people? There could be non-christians who find spritual comfort in it. For people who don't, the cross should be irrelevant to them.
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Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
Frankly - As an atheist I wouldn't give a flying testicle what symbol was put above my grave. However....
CS writes: I do see it as inherantly religious, but realize that that is irrelevant because that's not the reason they are putting it there. Why have they put a cross there rather than a swastika, a statue of Bugs Bunny or a Ying Yang symbol then?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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Frankly - As an atheist I wouldn't give a flying testicle what symbol was put above my grave. However.... That's how I'd see it... But apparently the other guys thinks its an "extreme disservice" ![]() Why have they put a cross there rather than a swastika, a statue of Bugs Bunny or a Ying Yang symbol then? Because this specific piece of metal was important to the rescuers.
quote: Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 1120 days) Posts: 3193 Joined:
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You didn't explain why your question, that I answered, was relevant to this debate. It was to point out that the cross is only comforting to christians. Chrisitans would normally not find spiritual reprieve in the symbol of a different faith.
You were just trolling, weren't you? Yes, CS, I was. This is all a big game I play.
What does that have to do with anything? It's called a response. It was in response to you likening your faith to ice cream.
Why does it have to be a religious group? Where did I say it had to be? I asked you to name a group of people who find spiritual anything in the cross. the point is is that the only group that comes to mind are christians. If you know if a different group, now would be a great time to mention it..... At the same time we CAN name groups of people who DO NOT find spiritual anything in the cross AND groups of people that take offense to it.
And aren't people free to find spiritual confort in anything they want? I never said they weren't. It's just that the only people who DO find spiritual comfort/guidance/whatever in the cross ARE CHRISTIANS. Whether they be weekend warriors or fundamentalists.
but realize that that is irrelevant because that's not the reason they are putting it there. So they claim. But it is odd they don't allow any other symbol......
How? And what makes it so extreme? See, here is the thing. Some people actually give a shit. So much so that they debate the issues. These people are not the typoe of people who liken their faith, or lack thereof, to flavors of ice cream. I know YOU don't care, but there are people who do not want to be represented by christianity.
There could be non-christians who find spritual comfort in it. Of course there could be. It's just that there doesn't seem to be."Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm still not seeing any point from you that pertains to this debate...
It was to point out that the cross is only comforting to christians. Chrisitans would normally not find spiritual reprieve in the symbol of a different faith. So?
It's just that the only people who DO find spiritual comfort/guidance/whatever in the cross ARE CHRISTIANS. And that is irrelevant.
So they claim. But it is odd they don't allow any other symbol...... It hasn't been decided yet. If they do, are you cool with the cross then?
See, here is the thing. Some people actually give a shit. So much so that they debate the issues. These people are not the typoe of people who liken their faith, or lack thereof, to flavors of ice cream. I know YOU don't care, but there are people who do not want to be represented by christianity. Having this cross in the museum does not represent people by christianity. What are you talking about?
Of course there could be. It's just that there doesn't seem to be. So?
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Straggler Member (Idle past 384 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
CS writes: Because this specific piece of metal was important to the rescuers. I get that. But do the non-Christian views of the families/friends of those killed hold any sway over whether or not this is appropriate?
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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But do the non-Christian views of the families/friends of those killed hold any sway over whether or not this is appropriate? No, and they don't get to decide what pieces are in other museums either.
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