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Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 271 of 433 (626601)
07-30-2011 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by zi ko
07-30-2011 10:08 AM


NOT DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
Who ever said that animals can't feel empathy?
Empathy exist, any psychologist or therapist knows that (I could not do my job without it): but the ability of empathy to affect the genome is unsupported by the evidence.
As you well know.
You keep telling me about empathy but it is clear you don't actually understand what you are quoting.
There used to be a theory called 'unconscious transmission'. When I was an undergrad in mid 90's one of my professors still believed in it.
The idea was that the mother and foetus would communicate on an unconscious level.
But (and here is where we find congruence with your story) no matter how heartfelt my professor was in his belief in 'unconscious transmission' the theory has been abandoned by academia because there never was any evidence to support the idea.
It was an idea that a lot of people held to because they liked the sound of it.
That is what is happening here: you like the sound of empathy being involved in evolution. But you idea is no different from 'unconscious transmission'.
If this is the case and empathy, among others, but mainly transfers stress related information,
There no valence attached to empathy. This is what makes me question whether you really know what you are talking about.
Edited by Larni, : Last quote

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 10:08 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 274 by zi ko, posted 07-31-2011 11:30 AM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 272 of 433 (626792)
07-31-2011 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by Larni
07-30-2011 10:22 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
If this is the case and empathy, among others, but mainly transfers stress related information, is it impropable to infer the importance of it to evolution?
God forgive me but I can see where you are coming from. What you seem to be saying is that when an organism in under a selective pressure there is a 'change' in the 'rate' of evolution and another organism can acquire a like 'change' through some information channel that you are calling empathy. Am i right?
About so. You have to consider as well, that this same senario is repeated maybe millions of times over generrations, to have this effect.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by Larni, posted 07-30-2011 10:22 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 273 by Larni, posted 07-31-2011 11:25 AM zi ko has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 273 of 433 (626797)
07-31-2011 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by zi ko
07-31-2011 11:09 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
There is no evidence of any 'effect', though is there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by zi ko, posted 07-31-2011 11:09 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by zi ko, posted 07-31-2011 11:35 AM Larni has not replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 274 of 433 (626798)
07-31-2011 11:30 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by Larni
07-30-2011 10:34 AM


Re: NOT DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
That is what is happening here: you like the sound of empathy being involved in evolution. But you idea is no different from 'unconscious transmission'.
I don't talk about subconcious transmission. But babies communicate with mother from one year of age (wikipedia)
There no valence attached to empathy.
My idea is that as empathy is a transgenerational phenomenon with the SAME SENARIO, it can succesfully affect genome. So it is an important and very useful means for organism to evolute and survive, for nature in its economy law not to take advantage of.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by Larni, posted 07-30-2011 10:34 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by Larni, posted 07-31-2011 1:52 PM zi ko has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 275 of 433 (626800)
07-31-2011 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by Larni
07-31-2011 11:25 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
As there no for many concepts in science (f.e about randoness in mutations).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by Larni, posted 07-31-2011 11:25 AM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 276 of 433 (626819)
07-31-2011 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by zi ko
07-31-2011 11:30 AM


Re: NOT DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
I don't talk about subconcious transmission. But babies communicate with mother from one year of age (wikipedia)
I was using UT as an example of an idea someone had that had no evidence to support it and was thus not accepted by science.
it can succesfully affect genome.
But it does not effect the genome. The environment does (via NS) but empathy does not.
As there no for many concepts in science (f.e about randoness in mutations).
I'm not clear on what you are saying. Please try to spell words correctly and to put them in the right order.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
Edited by Larni, : clarity

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by zi ko, posted 07-31-2011 11:30 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 12:15 AM Larni has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 277 of 433 (626955)
08-01-2011 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by Larni
07-31-2011 1:52 PM


Re DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
I'm not clear on what you are saying.
Sorry. As there (are) not(evidences) for many concepts in science (f.e about randoness in mutations).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 276 by Larni, posted 07-31-2011 1:52 PM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by Larni, posted 08-01-2011 3:44 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 278 of 433 (626968)
08-01-2011 3:44 AM
Reply to: Message 277 by zi ko
08-01-2011 12:15 AM


Re: Re DOUPTING IS THE BEAUTY OF SCIENCE
But there is evidence for randomness in mutations.
Please show any directed mutions you have evidence of.
And a little tip: you keep writing (f.e.) and then stating an example. You should write (e.g). Hope that helps.
Edited by Larni, : E.g.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 12:15 AM zi ko has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


(1)
Message 279 of 433 (626971)
08-01-2011 4:28 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by zi ko
07-30-2011 10:00 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
If this is the case and empathy, among others, but mainly transfers stress related information, is it impropable to infer the importance of it to evolution?
OK so we need to add 'Stress' to the list of words you just use willy nilly. The article is talking about specific cellular stresses, this is in no way the same thing as emotional stress.
The article also seems to be from the Intelligent Design site Evolution News & Views and the language is heavily skewed to a subjective interpretation from that perspective, which explains why their argument about a specified system being unable to evolve through random evolution makes no sense. As far as I can see it has no possible relevance to your claims, if you feel it does you will have to rely on something more substantial than mere semantics to demonstrate it.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by zi ko, posted 07-30-2011 10:00 AM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 12:23 PM Wounded King has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 280 of 433 (627215)
08-01-2011 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 279 by Wounded King
08-01-2011 4:28 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
The article is talking about specific cellular stresses, this is in no way the same thing as emotional stress.
Obviously there is an analogy between these states.
The article also seems to be from the Intelligent Design site Evolution News & Views and the language is heavily skewed to a subjective interpretation from that perspective, which explains why their argument about a specified system being unable to evolve through random evolution makes no sense.
Idon't bother about their interpretations, but the article treats the matter seriously and is in accord with other scientists (Shapiro, Wright ect)

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 279 by Wounded King, posted 08-01-2011 4:28 AM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 281 by Wounded King, posted 08-01-2011 1:03 PM zi ko has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


(2)
Message 281 of 433 (627219)
08-01-2011 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 280 by zi ko
08-01-2011 12:23 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
Obviously there is an analogy between these states.
OK, so apparently you don't understand the concept of analogy either or if you do then you should realise that the fact you can draw an analogy between 2 things doesn't mean that their similarities extend any further than the actual analogous features that can be identified.
If you had a really compelling analogy then you might even go as far as to predict the existence of a previously unrecognised feature of one of the systems, but in the absence of evidence it would only be speculation.
Sadly for your argument you are nowhere near that depth of analogy, indeed you don't actually put forward any reason why emotional stress and environmental stress on a cell are actually analogous. You merely claim this is obvious, but the basis for this seems to be nothing more than the commonality of the term 'stress', as I said semantics.
Idon't bother about their interpretations
Well everything you quoted was nothing more than that, it presented nothing substantive. The idea that cells react to certain particular environmental stimuli in specific ways, and to certain types of genetic damage, is wholly uncontroversial. The only thing that article does is rehash widely accepted science with an ID spin.
Shapiro, Wright
Really, by now you should have realised that all your insistent and endless appeals to authority do is make it look like you have absolutely nothing to say.
If you want to discuss the research of those authors then do that, but don't just throw them out there like some magical talisman against actually having to provide evidence and an argument.
If you think that the article you cited actually has anything relevant to your claims then maybe you could highlight what it was, what you quoted so far just suggests that you can't do better to support your position than picking up ID propaganda that happens to have a particular keyword you are fixated on associated with it.
TTFN,
WK
Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 12:23 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 282 by Larni, posted 08-01-2011 2:25 PM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 282 of 433 (627234)
08-01-2011 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Wounded King
08-01-2011 1:03 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
WK writes:
If you think that the article you cited actually has anything relevant to your claims then maybe you could highlight what it was,
This is exactly what I asked zi ko, up tread.
The response?
zi ko writes:
What do you mean? Do i have to support the relation of my ideas with the theory of Shapiro ect?
Can you believe it?

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 Message 281 by Wounded King, posted 08-01-2011 1:03 PM Wounded King has seen this message but not replied

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zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 283 of 433 (627296)
08-01-2011 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by Wounded King
08-01-2011 1:03 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
If you had a really compelling analogy then you might even go as far as to predict the existence of a previously unrecognised feature of one of the systems, but in the absence of evidence it would only be speculation.
I have never said I have any evidence. In any case i am not qualified for this. and i don't believe it could ever be found.
You also make the mistake of assuming that because some environmental influences, which for the sake of argument we might call 'information', can affect the genome through mutation then all forms of information can, but there is no evidence to suggest that this is the case.
Untill there will be any evidence that it doesn't happen ,any body can believe it could.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.
Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by Taq, posted 08-01-2011 11:48 PM zi ko has replied
 Message 304 by ZenMonkey, posted 08-03-2011 4:02 PM zi ko has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 284 of 433 (627299)
08-01-2011 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by zi ko
08-01-2011 11:24 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
Untill there will be any evidence that it doesn't happen ,any body can believe it could.
That is the exact opposite of how things work. We usually need evidence before we believe something. However, I do have some fantastic snake oil and a bridge I would love to sell you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 11:24 PM zi ko has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by zi ko, posted 08-02-2011 12:55 AM Taq has replied

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 3619 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 285 of 433 (627301)
08-02-2011 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 282 by Larni
08-01-2011 2:25 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
There is a strong analogy between the two states. As there is no evidence against my ideas i can keep them , can't I?
As i keep saying all the time, I wholly accept shapiro's findings, relating to one cell organisms.. So what is the reason to relate them with my ideas? My empathy and neural system conceptions are applied to multicellular organisms, where Shapiro work stops.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by Taq, posted 08-02-2011 12:45 AM zi ko has replied

  
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