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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 16 of 349 (627019)
07-24-2011 1:54 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Chuck77
07-24-2011 12:51 AM


Debating creationists
Question:
When there is a disagreement between (or among) creationists, how do they resolve that difference?
It appears to me that they don't. As there are an estimated 38,000 to 40,000 different Christian denominations it appears that rather than resolving differences through some empirical means, they simply split off into more and more denominations.
Given that, how can you tell that Hovind is "more of a crackpot than most?" What standard can you use? It would seem to me, an outsider, that you have no empirical means nor agreed-upon methods to determine who is right and who is wrong.
Perhaps this is another problem in debating creationists--they haven't worked out a uniform set of beliefs among themselves, and apparently have no method for doing so.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Chuck77, posted 07-24-2011 12:51 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Chuck77, posted 07-24-2011 2:18 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 29 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-24-2011 5:59 PM Coyote has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 349 (627020)
07-24-2011 2:18 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-24-2011 1:54 AM


Try reading - It helps
Coyote writes:
It would seem to me, an outsider, that you have no empirical means nor agreed-upon methods to determine who is right and who is wrong
You can't help yourself huh Coyote? You seem to know everything even as an "outsider"?
Now your going to turn this WHOLE thread into the validity of Creation Science peer review process. Great, well, im not gonna fall into the trap of your arrogance and know it all BS attitude.
Here's a freeking thought Coyote. READY Coyote? Here it is:
READ THE LINKS I POSTED FOR BUTTERFLYTYRANT AND YOU'LL ACTUALLY SEE WHAT METHODS ARE USED TO DETERMINE THE CONCLUSION. IT'S ALL SPELLED OUT FOR THE ILLITERATE TO UNDERSTAND. IT SHOWS WHY CREATIONISTS THINK HOVIND IS WAY OFF. NO PICTURES, SORRY.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-24-2011 1:54 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Percy, posted 07-24-2011 7:46 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 18 of 349 (627021)
07-24-2011 7:46 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Chuck77
07-24-2011 2:18 AM


Re: Try reading - It helps
Chuck77 writes:
READ THE LINKS I POSTED FOR BUTTERFLYTYRANT AND YOU'LL ACTUALLY SEE WHAT METHODS ARE USED TO DETERMINE THE CONCLUSION. IT'S ALL SPELLED OUT FOR THE ILLITERATE TO UNDERSTAND. IT SHOWS WHY CREATIONISTS THINK HOVIND IS WAY OFF. NO PICTURES, SORRY.
Ow, my ears!
Here are your two links, which were unaccompanied by any claims or discussion, just a suggestion that they were "good links to check out":
And here is the relevant rule from the Forum Guidelines:
  1. Bare links with no supporting discussion should be avoided. Make the argument in your own words and use links as supporting references.
So once you did make a claim about those links it would have been helpful to describe some of what was in them.
I did take a quick look at your links and the they do appear to provide good illustrations of one creationist organization chiding other creationist organizations for dismissing and ignoring valid scientific evidence while themselves dismissing and ignoring other valid scientific evidence.
Once one chooses to give greater credence to revelation than to real-world evidence then decisions about which real-word evidence to accept becomes based upon other factors like politics, personal preference, etc. One important factor is that people care what other people think and don't like to look ridiculous. The primary difference between Hovind and CMI is their tolerance for looking foolish to the scientific world.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Chuck77, posted 07-24-2011 2:18 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 349 (627022)
07-24-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
Regarding the Gish Gallop, at least Gish was one opponent doing the galloping. The real challenge comes when a creationist gets a whole pack galloping at him and the debate mods egging them on.
Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC. However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Panda, posted 07-24-2011 10:39 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2011 11:16 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 20 of 349 (627023)
07-24-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
07-24-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
Buzsaw writes:
Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC. However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now.
Unlike Hovind, I'm not a YEC either. However, IMO, his incarceration is completely unaffected by his beliefs.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2011 10:25 AM Buzsaw has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by fearandloathing, posted 07-24-2011 10:57 AM Panda has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 21 of 349 (627024)
07-24-2011 10:57 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Panda
07-24-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
Hi Panda,
I don't think Buzz knows that Kent has other cases pending, not sure what though. I was wondering why they had him in administrative segregation and now believe I know why now. I think it is common practice to do that to prisoners with cases pending, I could be wrong. It may also explain why he hasn't got out yet, not the fact he is a creationist, prison is full of all different flavors of religion, not many atheist though.
quote:
All five of us they moved from Jesup have cases pending in the courts.
I thought this blog of his is rather amusing, he whines alot about how bad it is. IMO he needs to be in one of those tent camp jails like they have in Arizona or Texas maybe, out in the heat and cold and all the wonderful things nature provides us.
quote:
July 5th, 2011 by sgagne
Diesel Therapy Again
My Journey from Jesup, Georgia to Florence, Colorado
June 11, 2011
TRANSFER
Hey all! What a time this has been! I’m in Tallahassee for two weeks until they fly me to Oklahoma for an un-designated amount of time in that human — transfer center. Then, not to Pekin, Illinois, but to Florence, Colorado! The excuse given for my move was that the Jesup camp was overcrowded. Ironically, I met five men today who are on their way to the very same camp in Jesup that they just moved me out of! All five of us they moved from Jesup have cases pending in the courts. Could that be the reason behind the move?
This transfer center in Tallahassee is nice. There is a large, open room with lots to do from 6am — 10pm. At night, we are locked in quiet two-man cells. After nine months living where I was in the dorm only five feet from the microwaves and sink and doors, the quiet was strange! I loved it! The coveralls they give everyone in the transfer centers are not comfortable at all and I lived in them for four and a half months at the county jail and for fifty days while in transit last time. My first day here, I was put in a room with a very nice guy who works in laundry. He gave me shorts, extra oranges to eat (I LOVE oranges!), a real pillow! and other odd stuff I needed. God is good! Pretty good library and food here, too!
My first night here, they had a Bible study with about seven guys. I attended and everyone introduced themselves. The group leader asked if I would lead the study last night! I cried. They told me both in Edgefield and in Jesup that I was not to lead any Bible studies even if it was only with one other person! I’ve been taking in for months with no outlet. I felt like the Dead Sea! What a blessed release to share my faith and teach the Word of God again!
The counselor in Jesup had told me my first week there that if he wanted to, he could send me where I would never see my family! (Some people need a job mowing grass not dealing with people.) All the inmates including me avoided him but I must have gotten on his radar somehow. Hmmmm? I feel certain it is a Genesis 50:20 thing. We’ll see the Romans 8:28 of this one day. I just reread the words to the song Farther Along. Wow! Perfect fit for my case! I continue to file motions with both the 11th Circuit court and the District court.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Panda, posted 07-24-2011 10:39 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 07-24-2011 11:51 AM fearandloathing has replied
 Message 28 by Panda, posted 07-24-2011 1:03 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 22 of 349 (627025)
07-24-2011 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Buzsaw
07-24-2011 10:25 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
The real challenge comes when a creationist gets a whole pack galloping at him and the debate mods egging them on.
You don't know what a Gish Gallop is, do you?
However, IMO, were it not for his creationist ideology Hovind would have been out on parole by now.
Ahh, good ole' xtian persecution. You christians have it sooooo bad.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2011 10:25 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2011 11:27 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 349 (627026)
07-24-2011 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by hooah212002
07-24-2011 11:16 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
You don't know what a Gish Gallop is, do you?
I do, but if you don't get the connection in my message, perhaps you had better look up it's meaning for yourself.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2011 11:16 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by hooah212002, posted 07-24-2011 11:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 24 of 349 (627027)
07-24-2011 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Buzsaw
07-24-2011 11:27 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
Buz, numerous people asking you for evidence is not an example of a Gish Gallop. Evolutionists are not, and never have been, perpetrators of any form of Gish Galloping.

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Buzsaw, posted 07-24-2011 11:27 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 25 of 349 (627028)
07-24-2011 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by fearandloathing
07-24-2011 10:57 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
I believe the "case pending in the courts" is the motion Hovind filed last year alleging errors by both the prosecution and defense.
I've read enough of Kent Hovind's prison correspondence to be amazed that there is never a break in the facade, and I've come to think that it is no facade. Hard to believe, but even inside he apparently believes everything he says ranging from Noah's flood to vaccinations to being a citizen of the world and not the US to income taxes.
I don't think we'll ever see a contrite or remorseful Hovind, certainly we haven't as yet. This might be because, as I understand it, there is no parole system for federal prisons, the entire sentence must be served. Thus Hovind has no motivation to set the stage for going before a parole board to say things like that he understands his errors, he'll pay taxes, and if released will work to make restitution to the federal government.
Hovind will be 62 when released and must then serve 3 years of parole. I'm sure he'll be spouting the same nonsense about evolution and vaccinations and all the rest, but I bet pays his federal income taxes.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by fearandloathing, posted 07-24-2011 10:57 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by jar, posted 07-24-2011 12:09 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
 Message 27 by fearandloathing, posted 07-24-2011 12:30 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 349 (627029)
07-24-2011 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Percy
07-24-2011 11:51 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
Hopefully, once he gets out, all those employees that he screwed out of their Social Security retirement benefits will seek restitution.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 07-24-2011 11:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 27 of 349 (627030)
07-24-2011 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Percy
07-24-2011 11:51 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
I couldn't find any more pending charges so he must have been speaking of his motion filed last year.
The blog is first time I have read any of his correspondence, he is a piece of work. The wiki page on him was interesting also being that I wasn't that familiar with his case. Some of the arguments he use in court were pretty far out. I don't know if you could plead insanity in a tax evasion case but if you could then his lawyer probably could've made a strong case based on the wacko claims of his client.
North Carolina done away with parole around 1990 or so, I wasn't aware the Feds didn't have one either.
I bet he wishes he had paid his taxes now, though he would never say so I'm guessing. He would've still been wealthy... and free.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Percy, posted 07-24-2011 11:51 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 28 of 349 (627031)
07-24-2011 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by fearandloathing
07-24-2011 10:57 AM


Re: Gish Gallop & Confinement
fearandloathing writes:
I don't think Buzz knows that Kent has other cases pending, not sure what though. I was wondering why they had him in administrative segregation and now believe I know why now. I think it is common practice to do that to prisoners with cases pending, I could be wrong.
I was more trying to balance Buz's unevidenced opinion with another unevidenced opinion. (I think I need one more unevidenced opinion to win.)
fearandloathing writes:
I thought this blog of his is rather amusing, he whines alot about how bad it is.
I bet he used to complain about prisons being like holiday camps...
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by fearandloathing, posted 07-24-2011 10:57 AM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

  
Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 29 of 349 (627032)
07-24-2011 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Coyote
07-24-2011 1:54 AM


Re: Debating creationists
When there is a disagreement between (or among) creationists, how do they resolve that difference?
As usual C, you dont understand the difference between opinions and simple logical propositions. Opinions and differences matter little where logic validates a proposition.
Opinions and differences cant undo what is logically demonstratable and possible. This is why it is so very easy to debate you fellas in public or in writing. Its an open and shut case given the fact that you have no more information concerning the origin of reality than do I or anybody else
There is nothing to be resolved amoung Christians, since reality has done that for us
Pointing out that something MAY HAVE evolved, has little or nothing do do with the fact that it may have been created to do that in the first place.
Given that, how can you tell that Hovind is "more of a crackpot than most?" What standard can you use? It would seem to me, an outsider, that you have no empirical means nor agreed-upon methods to determine who is right and who is wrong.
Sure you do, its called, reality, logic and simple common sense. But then you and these other fellas refuse to debate it publically or allow it logically in science classrooms because your afraid of religion and the affects of it to begin with.
Thats the real point isnt it, you dont really have logical proposition ot stand on, so you blindside people with prejudice, imaginary inconsistencies, faulty reasoning and sloppy debating tactics
At bare minimum you refuse to deal with it as a simple logical proposition, because it makes your secular fundamentalist position fade as a vapor into realtive non-exsistence
And we cant have that can we, you have to have a platform somewhere dont you. So what you do is keep alive these supposed and imaginary differences between the two positions, dont you, when in fact the two positions have little or nothing to do with eachother
Perhaps this is another problem in debating creationists--they haven't worked out a uniform set of beliefs among themselves, and apparently have no method for doing so.
Your a liar (intellectually dishonest) and a coward and you know it, if you ever to choose to be intellectually honest
Yeah thats going to happen.
It doesnt make the Bible or anyother inspiration claimed source a liar due to the fact that the two positions are not in oposition to eachother to begin with
Secondly, If indeed inspiration and omnipotence are involved, there could be numerous reasons as to why our understanding is limited
At any rate one does not cancel the other out, as you fellas try and make it appear. But it helps to keep websites, books and misinformation alive, eh
Dawn Bertot
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Coyote, posted 07-24-2011 1:54 AM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Coyote, posted 07-24-2011 6:29 PM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 34 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-25-2011 1:57 AM Dawn Bertot has replied
 Message 75 by dwise1, posted 07-30-2011 8:54 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 30 of 349 (627033)
07-24-2011 6:29 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Dawn Bertot
07-24-2011 5:59 PM


Re: Debating creationists
If there is such a level of agreement, why are there some 40+ thousand different Christian denominations? (And some 4,300 world religions?)
And why is there no way to determine which belief is correct?
Tell you what, you guys fight it out among yourselves and when you get down to a single religion, then science can take on the winner. That's fair, eh?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-24-2011 5:59 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Dawn Bertot, posted 07-24-2011 7:16 PM Coyote has not replied

  
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