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Author Topic:   Religious tolerance and multiculturalism
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4421 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 76 of 77 (627209)
08-01-2011 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by Panda
08-01-2011 9:56 AM


Re: Gone mad!
Hey Panda,
"Huge amount of media attention to his cause." - and most of it is negative. Gary Glitter had massive media attention too. On balance: not a success.
"The wide distribution of his manifesto." - Yes, it has been widely distributed.
"A direct loss of life of individuals he saw as the cause of his problem." - since many of them were below the voting age, I suspect only a madman could blame them for the government's policies - but since he is mad, I expect that he does consider their deaths a success.
"People now take him seriously." - I am not sure what you mean by 'take him seriously'. Before the attack he was ignored - and now he is loathed. Is that a good thing for him?
This is all true. I am not saying that I believe that he was a success. I am saying that I believe HE thinks he is a success. As to people taking him seriously, before he was largely ignored, now people are actually listening to him. They had better take him seriously, particularly the judge who sentences him. Listening to what he says, having a captive audience is taking him far more seriously than he has ever been taken before.
How many lives is someone's agenda worth? IMO: None.
i disagree. Some things are worth dying for. And killing for. All of the soldiers I know would agree. Again, I am not saying Breicik was a soldier. I am just saying that a lot of people have ideologies that are worth fighting for, even to the death. Ending slavery would be a good example. I do 100% agree that this mans agenda was worth nothing more than some serious discussion.
I know that Breivik did not die in for his cause. My point was that a lot more people seem to be willing to kill for their cause rather than die for their cause.
The agenda I was meaning by people talking about it is the problems that currently exist with multiculturalism. I just performed a news search for 'Norway massacre multiculturalims debate' and in the first 4 results were these three stories.
The Washington Times - Oslo massacre sparks multicultural debate in Europe - Washington Times
Reuters - Page Not Found | Reuters
Euronews - http://www.euronews.net/...-pinpoint-multiculturalism-debate
The issue is being discussed. It may not be the result he was hoping for. I do not think it is a very effective way to communicate. The way I see it, you resort to violence when you are not smart enough to come up with an effective argument.
Many immigrant Islamic people are not happy with how their lives are in different countries, the bombs in London buses would be a very good example of this.
If by 'many' you mean about 25, then I might agree.
But if by 'many' you mean 'the majority of' then I strongly disagree.
I have friends who are Muslims - I work with Muslims - I have customers who are Muslims: they all like living in Britain.
The bombs in London were planted by psychopaths and were condemned by the majority of Muslims.
That was just one single highly televised event. I chose it because it because it was obvious. By many, I do not mean the majority. You know some nice muslims, so do I. I know some athiests who are arseholes. That does not mean that many athiests are arseholes. But I will use stats rather than poorly worded examples. Sorry it is 1:15 am here and I am up with a baby.
This is from the Muslimsagaisnt Crusade website. They are a britsih Islamic group.
Sadly, after centuries of conspiracies and Christian crusades, the Islamic state was destroyed by Western powers and its secular ideology in March 1924. However, the return of this once-great super power is imminent, as prophesised by Muhammad (peace be upon him), and Muslim activists all over the world are working collectively to establish the Islamic state. Only the Islamic state can establish true peace on earth and rid the world of all its economic and social problems.
http://www.muslimsagainstcrusades.com/shariah
Here is another story from a Bristish paper regarding growing radicalisation of islam in Britain -
Poll reveals 40pc of Muslims want sharia law in UK
and another one -
News - Breaking News UK, World News and Headlines - Daily Star
It is more than 25 people. The people most negatively effected by these groups are the Muslims like your friends. They are not the majority but they are certainly making life more dificult for the Muslims that succesfully integrate. We have the same issues to a lesser degree here in Australia. they are a problem for everyone. If it was a very small, ineffective minority, we would not even be having this discussion.
We already have a way - it is called democracy.
That would be nice. How happy will you be if Sharia law is democratically is voted into Britain?
If I have missed out responding to any part of your post it is not because I am ignoring it, but I am trying to mitigate each reply getting longer and longer.
If you feel I have skipped a particularly important remark, then please repeat it and I will address it.
This is just a chat. Pick and choose as you like. It is always good to get another persons perspective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Panda, posted 08-01-2011 9:56 AM Panda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-01-2011 7:15 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied

  
Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4421 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 77 of 77 (627263)
08-01-2011 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Butterflytyrant
08-01-2011 11:51 AM


Re: Gone mad!
I should also add that the problem with multiculturalism is not just the people arriving into a new cultural group.
It needs to be working both ways for it to actually be working.
The people who are already there need to be happy too.
The fact that far right extremist groups (and individuals like Breivik) are beginning to appear in many European nations is evidence that mulitculturalism is not working. Groups like the English Defense League, neo-Nazi youth protest movements and SIOE are good examples. Also, the centre right to far right political movement is beginning to appear and gain strength in many nations. Check out this site discussing the various groups -
Europe's far right | Gallery | guardian.co.uk
That page shows the democratically supported parties that are openly anti immigration. We are not talking about a few fringe groups or small numbers of people. In Austrian 1999, the Freedom Party received 27% of the vote (2.25 million people), The National Front in France recently received 17% of the votes (6 million people), In Italy in 2001 the National Alliance received 4% of the vote (2.4 million people), In Norway in 2010, the Progress Party received 14.7 % of the votes or 700 000 votes, in Switzerland, the Swiss People Party received 22.5% or 1.7 million votes. This is a lot of people who are not happy with the way multiculturalism is working.
We cant just tell these people that they are wrong and they need to change and be happy with the way things are going. For multiculturalism to work, these millions of people need to be happy too. Those examples are just the far right political groups. It does not include the percentage of voters who voted for lesser conservative parties with weaker anti immigration policies.
Remember that multiculturalism is the appreciation, acceptance or promotion of multiple cultures. This goes both ways.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-01-2011 11:51 AM Butterflytyrant has not replied

  
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