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Author Topic:   The Ultimate Question - Why is there something rather than nothing?
Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 151 of 366 (626613)
07-30-2011 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Black Cat
07-30-2011 11:06 AM


Black Cat writes:
It doesn't appear to me that W.L.C mis-represented Dawkins. He was summarizing Dawkins' arguments not quoting him directly.
Doctor Craig was not summarising Dawkins.
Doctor Craig claims he was quoting directly:
quote:
On pages 157-8 of his book, Dawkins summarizes what he calls "the central argument of my book." It goes as follows:
That was a lie.
Black Cat writes:
Can you please explain to me how how Craig's summarization sentence affected or distorted what Dawkins actually wrote?
It distorted what Dawkins had written by claiming it was what Dawkins had written, while it was in fact not what Dawkins had written.
This should not be difficult to understand.
If you claim that someone said something that they didn't say - then that is mis-quoting. It is lying.
Black Cat writes:
Is it because he didn't include the words "so far"?
No. It is because he included the words "On pages 157-8 of his book, Dawkins summarizes" - and then proceeds to make up what Dawkins had actually written.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Black Cat, posted 07-30-2011 11:06 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 12:30 AM Panda has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4613 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 152 of 366 (626716)
07-31-2011 12:30 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by Panda
07-30-2011 1:51 PM


No, he didn't claim Dawkins had written that. From the introductory sentence it doesn't seem clear whether his intention was to quote directly or to summarize. W.L.C does not explicitly say that he intended to quote directly. That's something you're assuming based on your reading of the sentence.
Edited by Black Cat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by Panda, posted 07-30-2011 1:51 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:02 AM Black Cat has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 153 of 366 (626718)
07-31-2011 1:02 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Black Cat
07-31-2011 12:30 AM


Black Cat writes:
No, he didn't claim Dawkins had written that. From the introductory sentence it doesn't seem clear whther his intention was to quote directly or to summarize. W.L.C does not explicitly say that he intended to quote directly. That's something you're assuming based on your reading of the sentence.
You can't have it both ways.
Either the list is a direct quote from Dawkins' book or Dr. Craig is attacking a straw-man argument which he fabricated himself.
{abe}
quote:
This argument is jarring because the atheistic conclusion that "Therefore, God almost certainly does not exist" seems to come suddenly out of left field. You don't need to be a philosopher to realize that that conclusion doesn't follow from the six previous statements.
This shows the level of deceit.
Dr. Craig is criticising his own mis-quotes as if they are Dawkins' own words.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 12:30 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 1:26 AM Panda has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4613 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 154 of 366 (626721)
07-31-2011 1:26 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by Panda
07-31-2011 1:02 AM


The list is not direct quotes, Craig never claims that they are. All he did was replace "crane so far" with "explanation". This doesn't compromise the meaning of the sentence, it simply makes it more understandable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:02 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:42 AM Black Cat has replied
 Message 159 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2011 11:24 AM Black Cat has replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 155 of 366 (626723)
07-31-2011 1:42 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Black Cat
07-31-2011 1:26 AM


Black Cat writes:
All he did was replace "crane so far" with "explanation"
Is that all he did?
Really?
Let us compare and contrast, shall we?
Then we will see if all he did was replace 3 words...
Dr Craig writes:
The temptation is a false one because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer.
Richard Dawkins writes:
The temptation is a false one, because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer. The whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability. It is obviously no solution to postulate something even more improbable. We need a 'crane', not a 'skyhook', for only a crane can do the business of working up gradually and plausibly from simplicity to otherwise improbable complexity.
Seems that you might have been wrong about what Dr. Craig replaced.
Let's look at another...
Dr Craig writes:
We don't have an equivalent explanation for physics.
Richard Dawkins writes:
We don't yet have an equivalent crane for physics. Some kind of multiverse theory could in principle do for physics the same explanatory work as Darwinism does for biology. This kind of explanation is superficially less satisfying than the biological version of Darwinism, because it makes heavier demands on luck. But the anthropic principle entitles us to postulate far more luck than our limited human intuition is comfortable with.
Wow! Dr. Craig has replaced and removed dozens of words.
How did you not know this?
I am starting to think that you have no knowledge of what Dawkins actually wrote.
Or maybe you support mis-quoting people out of context?
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 1:26 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:10 AM Panda has replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4613 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


Message 156 of 366 (627383)
08-02-2011 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 155 by Panda
07-31-2011 1:42 AM


Again, there's no clear evidence that he intended to quote Dawkins directly. Second, his summation of Dawkins' main points is accurate, that can easily be seen from the quotes you provided. Craig is not obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should inlude and not include.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Panda, posted 07-31-2011 1:42 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 08-02-2011 10:20 AM Black Cat has replied
 Message 160 by Panda, posted 08-02-2011 11:28 AM Black Cat has replied
 Message 161 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-02-2011 11:45 AM Black Cat has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(1)
Message 157 of 366 (627385)
08-02-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Black Cat
08-02-2011 10:10 AM


Again, there's no clear evidence that he intended to quote Dawkins directly. Second, his summation of Dawkins' main points is accurate, that can easily be seen from the quotes you provided. Craig is not obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should inlude and not include.
Ok let me try his method
let me quote you again
Again, there's clear evidence that he intended to quote Dawkins directly. Second, his summation of Dawkins' main points is not accurate, that can easily be seen from the quotes you provided. Craig is obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should include and not include.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:10 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:43 AM frako has not replied

Black Cat
Junior Member (Idle past 4613 days)
Posts: 28
From: Canada
Joined: 07-21-2011


(1)
Message 158 of 366 (627389)
08-02-2011 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by frako
08-02-2011 10:20 AM


Very bad example. First, you claimed to be quoting me, something Craig did not do of Dawkins. Also, you altered the meaning of what I said, something Craig did not do of Dawkins.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by frako, posted 08-02-2011 10:20 AM frako has not replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 159 of 366 (627399)
08-02-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by Black Cat
07-31-2011 1:26 AM


The list is not direct quotes, Craig never claims that they are. All he did was replace "crane so far" with "explanation". This doesn't compromise the meaning of the sentence, it simply makes it more understandable.
It conceals Dawkins' meaning; and it conceals that Craig is snipping random pieces out of Dawkins' argument and pretending that he is summarizing Dawkins' argument. Dawkins distinguishes between two types of explanation for things, which he calls "cranes" and "skyhooks". He argues that "cranes" are probable and "skyhooks" are improbable; and he argues that God is a "skyhook". Craig rips out this aspect of Dawkins' argument, changes "crane" to "explanation" so that you can't tell that there's a massive chunk of argument missing, and then complains that "the atheistic conclusion [...] seems to come suddenly out of left field" and that "that conclusion doesn't follow from the six previous statements" and goes on to refer to "the six steps of Dawkins' argument" as though Dawkins' argument did in fact consist of the six "steps" ripped out of context and re-written by Craig.
This seems to me to be dishonesty, but it could merely be idiocy. Or maybe a bit of both.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by Black Cat, posted 07-31-2011 1:26 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Black Cat, posted 08-04-2011 10:47 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3712 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 160 of 366 (627401)
08-02-2011 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Black Cat
08-02-2011 10:10 AM


Black Cat writes:
Again, there's no clear evidence that he intended to quote Dawkins directly.
I didn't claim that he did intend to quote Dawkins diectly.
In fact, I strongly suspect that he had every intention of mis-quoting Dawkins.
But, if he was going to argue against the summary then he should have quoted it directly.
Black Cat writes:
Second, his summation of Dawkins' main points is accurate, that can easily be seen from the quotes you provided.
His summary of Dawkin's summary is not accurate. That can easily be seen from the quotes I provided.
Black Cat writes:
Craig is not obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should inlude and not include.
Correct.
But he is obligated to not mis-quote and not quote-mine.
So, to summarise:
Dr. Craig has an ambiguous and misleading opening sentence.
He takes single sentences out of context.
He changes the wording of those sentences.
He argues against those sentences as if they are actually what Richard Dawkins had written.
If he was being honest he would have simply posted the complete summary - there is no reason not to.
I think he is simply lying for god.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:10 AM Black Cat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Black Cat, posted 08-03-2011 6:55 PM Panda has replied

Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 161 of 366 (627406)
08-02-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Black Cat
08-02-2011 10:10 AM


Craig is not obligated to quote whole paragraphs based on what you feel he should inlude and not include.
If he just wanted to say: "Here are six things Dawkins said that are wrong for the following reasons ..." he would not be obligated to summarize Dawkins' entire argument. But instead, he pretends that these six things are Dawkins' entire argument and then complains that the conclusion doesn't follow from them.
I think he is kinda not obligated to do this.
And then he has the gall to write this:
A more charitable interpretation would be to take these six statements, not as premises, but as summary statements of six steps in Dawkins' cumulative argument for his conclusion that God does not exist.
So it would be "charitable" would it, to "assume" that these are "summary statements"? No assumption is necessary. Craig knows damn well that they are a summary. They are a summary written by William Lane Craig.
Unless ... it has just struck me ... maybe Craig, instead of bothering to actually read the book, read this "summary" of Dawkins' argument written by another dumbass Christian apologist and didn't realize that what he was reading was not in fact written by Dawkins. That would also explain his behavior.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Black Cat, posted 08-02-2011 10:10 AM Black Cat has not replied

tubbyparticle
Junior Member (Idle past 4619 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 07-30-2011


(1)
Message 162 of 366 (627554)
08-02-2011 7:34 PM


Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
I'm no scientist and my opinion may not have the needed merit to persuade too many people, but I think this matter is within reach of everyone, because it is more philosophical than scientific. I agree with the two statements made during this discussions, that nothing has no states, and that science can only detect what happens after the universe has come into existence. Concerning what is defined as stateless, however, I disagree, since it has been said here that the concept of nothing is self-contradictory due to it having properties that make it nothing. Nothing is indeed the absence of everything, but the state is applied to the things that would be, not the nothing itself, and only applies as a state in reference to those things. Therefore, when something has the state of absence, it is excluded from reality, and therefore gives room for nothing. Nothing defines reality when nothing else defines it. So nothing does not have states, rather, it is the state of all things being absent. Also, that those objects have the state of absence does not mean they exist, for the state of those things are evident in that they do not exist, not the other way around.
I know that was probably the most crack-pot thing you've read so far.

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by GDR, posted 08-02-2011 8:53 PM tubbyparticle has not replied
 Message 164 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 1:55 AM tubbyparticle has not replied
 Message 166 by bluegenes, posted 08-03-2011 7:49 AM tubbyparticle has not replied

GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 163 of 366 (627571)
08-02-2011 8:53 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by tubbyparticle
08-02-2011 7:34 PM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
tubbyparticle writes:
I know that was probably the most crack-pot thing you've read so far.
Either that or the most brilliant, but I have no idea which one it is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by tubbyparticle, posted 08-02-2011 7:34 PM tubbyparticle has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 164 of 366 (627617)
08-03-2011 1:55 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by tubbyparticle
08-02-2011 7:34 PM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
While it wasn't as clearly written as it might be I think you are basically right. Nothing isn't a thing (by definition). If it were it would be self-contradictory. Any argument that does treat nothing as a thing to conclude a contradiction is, therefore, begging the question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by tubbyparticle, posted 08-02-2011 7:34 PM tubbyparticle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by bluegenes, posted 08-03-2011 7:45 AM PaulK has replied

bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2476 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 165 of 366 (627648)
08-03-2011 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by PaulK
08-03-2011 1:55 AM


Re: Nothing doesn't have states; it is a state.
PaulK writes:
Nothing isn't a thing (by definition). If it were it would be self-contradictory. Any argument that does treat nothing as a thing to conclude a contradiction is, therefore, begging the question.
So what would your answer to the O.P. question be?
If I answer:
"Why is there something rather than nothing?" with:
"Because nothing, by definition, cannot be."
Is there anything wrong with my answer?
If we wanted to phrase the question in a way that's truly unanswerable, wouldn't it be better to avoid the verb "to be" and say:
"Why existence?"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 1:55 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by PaulK, posted 08-03-2011 8:19 AM bluegenes has replied
 Message 169 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-03-2011 8:38 AM bluegenes has replied

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