Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 78 (8896 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-22-2019 9:54 AM
51 online now:
CosmicChimp, Diomedes, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Phat (AdminPhat), PurpleYouko (6 members, 45 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,542 Year: 3,579/19,786 Month: 574/1,087 Week: 164/212 Day: 6/25 Hour: 1/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
RewPrev1
...
1920
21
2223
...
29Next
Author Topic:   New theory about evolution between creationism and evolution.
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 301 of 433 (627665)
08-03-2011 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 300 by zi ko
08-03-2011 9:34 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
The Ledergerg and Luria-Delbruck Experiments show only that "random" mutations exist, not that directed ones don't exist.

Just a few posts ago you were claiming there was no evidence for random mutations so I guess this represents progress of a sort.

these mutations in their "randomnes" serve life's existence

Including the ones that render an animal infertile or produce embryos which will never develop into a viable organism?

You seem to have decide to not only redefine randomness without telling anyone what your new definition means, but also fitness so as to allow deleterious mutations to be beneficial.

Here is the analogy.

Its an incredibly poor analogy, other than saying that both obey the laws of nature you have provided nothing suggesting that they are analogous.

TTFN,

WK


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by zi ko, posted 08-03-2011 9:34 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 307 by zi ko, posted 08-04-2011 11:26 AM Wounded King has responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 302 of 433 (627710)
08-03-2011 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 300 by zi ko
08-03-2011 9:34 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
The Ledergerg and Luria-Delbruck Experiments show only that "random" mutations exist, not that directed ones don't exist.

Actually, it showed that the mutations in the experiment were not guided by the environment. Instead, the mutations resulting in bacteriophage resistance were the result of random occurrences prior to the bacteria being exposed to bacteriophage.

One of their hypotheses was that the mutations were guided. They tested for both directed and random mutations. Random mutations were supported by the data and directed mutations were not. Those are the facts of the matter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 300 by zi ko, posted 08-03-2011 9:34 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 303 of 433 (627711)
08-03-2011 3:25 PM


zi ko,

Your cyrstal analogy is very weak because there is nothing obviously analogous between crystals and mutations.

A better analogy is a set of dice. Would you say that the roll of the dice in Craps obeys the laws of science? Would you also say that placing a bet on two sixes does not increase the odds of the dice coming up as two sixes? IOW, is the roll of the dice in Craps random with respect to the bets on the table?

Edited by Taq, : No reason given.


  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2587 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 304 of 433 (627717)
08-03-2011 4:02 PM
Reply to: Message 283 by zi ko
08-01-2011 11:24 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
zi ko writes:

I have never said I have any evidence. In any case i am not qualified for this. and i don't believe it could ever be found.

I really can't believe that this thread has lasted for 300 posts and that this is the best that you can offer. You don't have evidence, you're not qualified to evaluate the evidence, and actually assert that there's no way to find any possibly relevant evidence. The evidence that has been presented here by people who are actually qualified to evaluate it in fact disproves your theory hypothesis supposition wild-assed guess demonstrably false statement. So what what have you been going on about for 8 pages?

Edited by ZenMonkey, : No reason given.


Your beliefs do not effect reality and evidently reality does not effect your beliefs.
-Theodoric

Reality has a well-known liberal bias.
-Steven Colbert

I never meant to say that the Conservatives are generally stupid. I meant to say that stupid people are generally Conservative. I believe that is so obviously and universally admitted a principle that I hardly think any gentleman will deny it.
- John Stuart Mill


This message is a reply to:
 Message 283 by zi ko, posted 08-01-2011 11:24 PM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 308 by zi ko, posted 08-04-2011 11:42 AM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 305 of 433 (627813)
08-04-2011 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 299 by Taq
08-03-2011 1:19 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
I n view that many times i have been misunderstood, i think i must clear up my position regarding evolution-randomness:
Life can make use of randomness for its purpose, by filling a gap in its try to percervance with this mechanism, amongst others, e.g directed or semidirected mutations,derepression,engineering systems, DNA restructurion by slicing, horizontal transportation,e.c.t. Detrimental mutations prove that nature-life has not a strict predetemined line of evolution, but it is a continous try and error process in which information from environment, logical use of resources, in a frame restricted and guided by physical laws, and chance are all used. So in a broad sense randomess is not really random.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 299 by Taq, posted 08-03-2011 1:19 AM Taq has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 306 by Panda, posted 08-04-2011 10:59 AM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1789 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 306 of 433 (627815)
08-04-2011 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 305 by zi ko
08-04-2011 10:53 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
zi ko writes:

I n view that many times i have been misunderstood, i think i must clear up my position regarding evolution-randomness:
Life can make use of randomness for its purpose, by filling a gap in its try to percervance with this mechanism, amongst others, e.g directed or semidirected mutations,derepression,engineering systems, DNA restructurion by slicing, horizontal transportation,e.c.t. Detrimental mutations prove that nature-life has not a strict predetemined line of evolution, but it is a continous try and error process in which information from environment, logical use of resources, in a frame restricted and guided by physical laws, and chance are all used. So in a broad sense randomess is not really random.


Surely there is more fun to be had doing sodoku than trying to guess what the hell you are saying.
I'm going back to Frako's god machine - it knew how to punctuate correctly.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by zi ko, posted 08-04-2011 10:53 AM zi ko has not yet responded

  
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 307 of 433 (627819)
08-04-2011 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 301 by Wounded King
08-03-2011 10:00 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
Just a few posts ago you were claiming there was no evidence for random mutations so I guess this represents progress of a sort.

I said there is no evidence of random mutations , not that they don't exist.

Including the ones that render an animal infertile or produce embryos which will never develop into a viable organism?

Yes.
I n view that many times i have been misunderstood, i think i must clear up my position regarding evolution-randomness:
Life can make use of randomness for its purpose, by filling a gap in its try to percervance with this mechanism, amongst others, e.g directed or semidirected mutations,derepression,engineering systems, DNA restructurion by slicing, horizontal transportation,e.c.t. Detrimental mutations prove that nature-life has not a strict predetemined line of evolution, but it is a continous try and error process in which information from environment, logical use of resources, in a frame restricted and guided by physical laws, and chance are all used. So in a broad sense randomess is not really random.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by Wounded King, posted 08-03-2011 10:00 AM Wounded King has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 309 by Wounded King, posted 08-04-2011 11:45 AM zi ko has responded
 Message 310 by Taq, posted 08-04-2011 2:33 PM zi ko has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 308 of 433 (627823)
08-04-2011 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 304 by ZenMonkey
08-03-2011 4:02 PM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
Sorry i have to repeat myself.
Information had been already adequately proven by others that , when is essential to survival, it affects genome (I MEAN DIRECTLY NOT THROUGH SELECTION).
Empathy is type of information, so by inference it can affect genome. Do i have to prove it again?

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 304 by ZenMonkey, posted 08-03-2011 4:02 PM ZenMonkey has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 311 by Larni, posted 08-05-2011 4:10 AM zi ko has responded

    
Wounded King
Member (Idle past 2171 days)
Posts: 4149
From: Edinburgh, Scotland
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 309 of 433 (627824)
08-04-2011 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 307 by zi ko
08-04-2011 11:26 AM


There are random mutations?
I said there is no evidence of random mutations , not that they don't exist.

And then you accepted that there was evidence for random mutations as they are commonly understood. How could the Luria-Delbruck experiments "show only that "random" mutations exist", as you concede, and yet not also be evidence for the existence of random mutations?

i think i must clear up my position regarding evolution-randomness

I'm sure it isn't intentional but nearly every time you endeavor to make your position more clear you instead make it even more incoherent and impenetrable.

Perhaps once again it is time to ask you to actually coherently define some terms, in this case it appears that your definition of 'Random' is required so we can know exactly hat you think you are saying.

If you insist on 'Random' to mean that all outcomes are equiprobable then no one will quibble that mutation is not random in that sense, but in that case you are using it in a sense rarely used in the biological sciences where it principally means a stochastic phenomenon which can be described with a probability distribution.

You seem to be essentially making a philosophical claim that the apparent randomness is not truly fundamentally random, but since your hypothesis does not include any criteria on which the two could be told apart it is entirely worthless in scientific terms. Many creationists and IDists have a similar approach claiming that the apparent randomness of mutations serves to mask subtle interventions to direct evolution by the Intelligent Designer/ God.

Empathy is type of information, so by inference it can affect genome. Do i have to prove it again?

You haven't proven it once, not even close. You have certainly claimed it ad nauseam but that isn't the same thing at all. Your supposedly logical inference is radically flawed.

TTFN,

WK

Edited by Wounded King, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by zi ko, posted 08-04-2011 11:26 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 312 by zi ko, posted 08-06-2011 12:38 AM Wounded King has not yet responded
 Message 329 by zi ko, posted 08-14-2011 10:25 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7673
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 310 of 433 (627847)
08-04-2011 2:33 PM
Reply to: Message 307 by zi ko
08-04-2011 11:26 AM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?
I said there is no evidence of random mutations , not that they don't exist.

I already showed you the evidence. Do we need to go through it again?

I n view that many times i have been misunderstood, i think i must clear up my position regarding evolution-randomness:
Life can make use of randomness for its purpose, by filling a gap in its try to percervance with this mechanism, amongst others, e.g directed or semidirected mutations,

What percentage of mutations are directed or semidirected? And what is a semidirected mutation?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 307 by zi ko, posted 08-04-2011 11:26 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 313 by zi ko, posted 08-06-2011 1:08 AM Taq has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3975
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 311 of 433 (627898)
08-05-2011 4:10 AM
Reply to: Message 308 by zi ko
08-04-2011 11:42 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information
Empathy is type of information, so by inference it can affect genome. Do i have to prove it again?

The thing is zi ko that you have not proved that empathy has any effect on the genome. You have referred to Shapiro et al several times and appealed to the authority of wiki and posted them on this site but none of that supports you point.

You even ask in apparent confusion why what you post should have any connection with you ideas.

Think about that for a second, would you? You are asking us why Shapiro and wiki (which you are so fond of posting) needs to have any connection with your ideas.

Does this make sense, to you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 308 by zi ko, posted 08-04-2011 11:42 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 314 by zi ko, posted 08-06-2011 1:28 AM Larni has responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 312 of 433 (627989)
08-06-2011 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 309 by Wounded King
08-04-2011 11:45 AM


Re: Empathy is a type of information

Empathy is type of information, so by inference it can affect genome. Do i have to prove it again?

You haven't proven it once, not even close. You have certainly claimed it ad nauseam but that isn't the same thing at all. Your supposedly logical inference is radically flawed.

I will try again.
Information(as its meaning is usually accepted) it it has been proven that it affects genome. Do i have to prove it again? Empathy as being a type of information,in cases being essential to survival , one can suppose rightly i think, it can affect genome.
Does it make sense?

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 309 by Wounded King, posted 08-04-2011 11:45 AM Wounded King has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 313 of 433 (627993)
08-06-2011 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 310 by Taq
08-04-2011 2:33 PM


Re: Are there RANDOM MUTATIONS?

I said there is no evidence of random mutations , not that they don't exist

I already showed you the evidence. Do we need to go through it again?

The question is "random in relation to what?"
I quote:
Even mutations are, as a matter of fact, non-random in various senses, ...... For example, mutations have well-understood physical causes, and to this extent they are non-random. ... the great majority of mutations, however caused, are random with respect to quality, and that means they are usually bad because there are more ways of getting worse than of getting better. [Dawkins 1996:70-71]

Edited by zi ko, : No reason given.


Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 310 by Taq, posted 08-04-2011 2:33 PM Taq has not yet responded

    
zi ko
Member (Idle past 1696 days)
Posts: 578
Joined: 01-18-2011


Message 314 of 433 (627998)
08-06-2011 1:28 AM
Reply to: Message 311 by Larni
08-05-2011 4:10 AM


Re:Could Empathy as a type of information affect genome?
Do i have to prove it again that information affects genome? Others, as Shapiro ect had done it well.
Empathy is atype of information. Do you want me to say that empathy in spite of this it can't affect genome? Wouldn't then i should have to bring evidence about it?

Information: It is time its undeservedly neglectet powerful role to evolution to be restored.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 311 by Larni, posted 08-05-2011 4:10 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 315 by Panda, posted 08-06-2011 8:24 AM zi ko has responded
 Message 316 by Larni, posted 08-06-2011 5:08 PM zi ko has not yet responded

    
Panda
Member (Idle past 1789 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 315 of 433 (628021)
08-06-2011 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 314 by zi ko
08-06-2011 1:28 AM


Re: Re:Could Empathy as a type of information affect genome?
Zi Ko writes:

Do i have to prove it again that information affects genome? Others, as Shapiro ect had done it well.
Empathy is atype of information.


My telephone number is also a type of information.
Therefore my telephone number affects genomes.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 314 by zi ko, posted 08-06-2011 1:28 AM zi ko has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 317 by zi ko, posted 08-07-2011 4:50 AM Panda has responded

  
RewPrev1
...
1920
21
2223
...
29Next
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019