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Author Topic:   Kent Hovind
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 241 of 349 (627765)
08-03-2011 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by fearandloathing
08-03-2011 11:18 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
fearandloathing writes:
It just seems to me it would be fairly easy to prove or disprove his claims. Based on my limited knowledge of what happens to wood in a marine environment, it would never allow coral growth to form in the shapes he shows, wood would be the first thing to go. I am not sure how long iron would last or what evidence of it if any would be left inside the coral formations.
If wood goes first, why is there wood in the Black Sea alledly pre-dating the Exodus? Why couldn't it form in the shapes he shows? How could it form in the wheel shapes the evidence shows if there were no wood wheels?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by fearandloathing, posted 08-03-2011 11:18 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Dirk, posted 08-03-2011 11:30 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 244 by Coyote, posted 08-03-2011 11:36 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 245 by DrJones*, posted 08-03-2011 11:42 PM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 249 by jar, posted 08-04-2011 8:33 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 251 by fearandloathing, posted 08-04-2011 8:47 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Dirk
Member (Idle past 4024 days)
Posts: 84
Joined: 08-20-2010


(1)
Message 242 of 349 (627766)
08-03-2011 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
How could it form in the wheel shapes the evidence shows if there were no wood wheels?
Simple. Because they wanted to see it:
The best way to prove that there's wood inside the coral is to prove that there's wood inside the coral. And they didn't do that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:20 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 243 of 349 (627767)
08-03-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Taq
08-03-2011 6:25 PM


Falsifying Evidence.
Taq writes:
For what it is worth:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of the individuals who I interviewed, who lost approximately 30,000 thousand dollars to Ron Wyatt, went to Israel with him, supposedly to see some of these sights and record them on film. An assignment editor of a major television station in Nasheville went with them. Not only did this individual not see any of these incredible discoveries, but his wife was told by one of Ron Wyatt's sons that the chariot wheels that Ron supposedly discovered in the Gulf of Aqaba were planted there by Ron. Mr. Wyatt gave this couple some coins which he supposedly found at the Ark of the Covenant site. Again, one of Wyatt's sons informed the wife that Wyatt bought those coins. Gentle, soft-spoken Ron verbally abused an Arab car rental agent when the agent told Mr. Wyatt that his son was to young to drive the vehicle.
This couple and the television man returned with nothing to show for the ten's of thousands of dollars he gave to Ron. Later, Ron returned and asked for $10,000 dollars more. This man told Ron he would give him the money if he agreed to take a lie detector test and sign a statement agreeing to allow this man to use the results of the test any way he wanted. Ron tried to get the money without agreeing to take the test, but when he saw that he would not get another dime without the test, he finally signed the statement and took the test. In the words of the man who put Ron Wyatt through the test, as told by the man who gave Ron Wyatt all the previous money, "He failed just about everything except his name."
source
Interestingly, he goes after Wyatt. All do, yet it was Moller who set out to falsify Wyatt's claims. I don't think Moller, renowned as a scientist would jeopardize his credibility by fraudulently reporting his research.
Interestingly, also, is that if so many are so anxious to debunk the evidence why aren't they there to do it fair and square themselves. That's easy. They don't want to find the evidence that Moller produced.
Everybody calls for more research. Well, let the skeptics go in and either poop or get off the pot..
The Exodus is not the topic here We've all been there and done that.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Taq, posted 08-03-2011 6:25 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by Taq, posted 08-04-2011 12:31 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 247 by PaulK, posted 08-04-2011 1:46 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2107 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 244 of 349 (627768)
08-03-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
If wood goes first, why is there wood in the Black Sea alledly pre-dating the Exodus?
Good questions.
1) What is the evidence that it is wood?
2) What is the evidence that it pre-dates the exodus?
The problem we have with the "archaeology" that has been done is we still don't know the answers to those and other questions.
The reaction of a real archaeologist would be to go and find out. They would come back with real evidence if there was any to be found. If not, they would say so.
The folks you have been citing instead proclaimed vindication for their religious beliefs and started selling movies.
Really, does this not seem unprofessional to you? I know you agree with their results, but don't you really see that they have presented no evidence, just wishes and beliefs?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:20 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2011 8:04 AM Coyote has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 245 of 349 (627769)
08-03-2011 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
If wood goes first, why is there wood in the Black Sea alledly pre-dating the Exodus?
The conditions in the Black Sea are not the same as the conditions in the red seas.
How could it form in the wheel shapes the evidence shows if there were no wood wheels?
yes how could it form into roundish shapes of unspecified size unless there were egyptian chariot wheels present!? Perhaps by growing on other roundish objects of unspecified size?
That's easy. They don't want to find the evidence that Moller produced.
Or they see no reason to waste time and money to debunk Moller's bullshit. Why can't Moller produce actual evidence? Why couldn't he bring along a tape measure and give use the sizes of these roundish coral growths?
The Exodus is not the topic here We've all been there and done that.
Then why did you bring it up?
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9973
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.7


Message 246 of 349 (627772)
08-04-2011 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:36 PM


Re: Falsifying Evidence.
Interestingly, also, is that if so many are so anxious to debunk the evidence why aren't they there to do it fair and square themselves. That's easy. They don't want to find the evidence that Moller produced.
There is no evidence to debunk. That's the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 247 of 349 (627774)
08-04-2011 1:46 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:36 PM


Re: Falsifying Evidence.
quote:
Interestingly, he goes after Wyatt. All do, yet it was Moller who set out to falsify Wyatt's claims. I don't think Moller, renowned as a scientist would jeopardize his credibility by fraudulently reporting his research.
Interestingly enough you are being dishonest here. The facts are that Taq chose to quote a critique of Wyatt because Moller is an uncritical follower of Wyatt, who went out to support Wyatt's claims without any serious attempt to refute them at all. And we already know that Moller's book is about as damaging to his reputation as it could be - given that it is in an area unrelated to his speciality of Environmental Medicine. And that may be the only thing saving him - his work in Environmental Medicine stands on its own, and so long as that is unaffected by his religious nonsense, his reputation in that field is pretty much safe.
quote:
Interestingly, also, is that if so many are so anxious to debunk the evidence why aren't they there to do it fair and square themselves. That's easy. They don't want to find the evidence that Moller produced.
A fair bit of debunking has gone on here. But let's be clear, no serious researcher thinks it's worth the time BECAUSE the "evidence" is so rubbish, and the claims so ridiculous. THe would-be debunkers are private individuals and mounting a serious investigate - one more serious than Moller attempted (which is what you are demanding) would be a significant expense, not worth it when armchair debunking does so much. Ad let us be clear that the burden of proof is on Moller. If he does not haver the evidence to support his claims it is not the responsibility of anyone else to investigate and prove him wrong, it is up to him to investigate and show that he is right.
But as I said, armchair debunking can be done and has been done to much of Moller's "evidence". For instance I debunked the already-dubious claim that statues of Senmut holding Hatshepsut's infant daughter were in fact statues of Hatshepsut holding Senmut as a baby - by finding an almost identical statue of Senmut without the baby. A clear example of jumping to conclusions based on superficial research - typical of apologetics, but not of science.
quote:
Everybody calls for more research. Well, let the skeptics go in and either poop or get off the pot..
Actually we call for Moller to go out there and do a proper job of research instead of just assuming that Ron Wyatt must be right. And until he does produce good evidence we don't have to pretend that he does have good evidence. Just as we don't have to pretend that his book is scientific or well-reasoned or anything other than a steaming heap of credulous Ron Wyatt-worshipping nonsense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:36 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 248 of 349 (627782)
08-04-2011 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Coyote
08-03-2011 11:36 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Coyote writes:
1) What is the evidence that it is wood?
2) What is the evidence that it pre-dates the exodus?
Surely you're aware of Robert Ballard's National Geographic touted discovery, estimated to be over 5000 years ago of wooden structures 550' down in the Black Sea.
Apparently this confirms my contention that permission must be had from the nation whose jurisdiction the area is under in order to analyze the wood, etc. To my knowledge, that has not yet been done. Why should scientist Moller be held to a higher standard of research than the likes of the great renowned Ballard so far as verification?
quote:
If Ballard’s team gets permission from the Turkish government, they may take a sample of the wood for dating. This would not only confirm the date of the structure, but help to establish a more precise date for when the flooding of the Black Sea took place.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 244 by Coyote, posted 08-03-2011 11:36 PM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 250 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2011 8:35 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 249 of 349 (627788)
08-04-2011 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Because the wood found in the Black sea is from deep water far below where coral grows and in an oxygen low environment, not covered by coral and in shallow waters.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:20 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 250 of 349 (627789)
08-04-2011 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 248 by Buzsaw
08-04-2011 8:04 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
Buz - If this wood hasn't been analysed yet on what basis do you think it supports the conclusions you are advocating?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 248 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2011 8:04 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 251 of 349 (627792)
08-04-2011 8:47 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Buzsaw
08-03-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
If wood goes first, why is there wood in the Black Sea alledly pre-dating the Exodus
Buzz, the answer to your question lies in your own links about Ballard.
quote:
Though the structure does not lie within the Black Sea’s anoxic dead zone, the site is well preserved due to its proximity to those deep, oxygen-free waters. Such proximity might have prevented wood-consuming organisms from devouring the site as they would likely have done in shallower waters.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...12/122800blacksea.html
Seems you have answered yourself, thanks.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by Buzsaw, posted 08-03-2011 11:20 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 252 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2011 9:40 AM fearandloathing has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 252 of 349 (627802)
08-04-2011 9:40 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by fearandloathing
08-04-2011 8:47 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
fearandloathing writes:
Seems you have answered yourself, thanks.
But the coral would not have formed in the Black Sea region. The coral likely formed before the wood rotted or possibly even preserved the wood from rot to some degree.
In either case, there was good reason not to publicize further research. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, as the saying goes.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 251 by fearandloathing, posted 08-04-2011 8:47 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 253 by fearandloathing, posted 08-04-2011 10:20 AM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 255 by DrJones*, posted 08-04-2011 2:00 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 257 by Dirk, posted 08-04-2011 6:22 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
Message 253 of 349 (627808)
08-04-2011 10:20 AM
Reply to: Message 252 by Buzsaw
08-04-2011 9:40 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
The coral likely formed before the wood rotted or possibly even preserved the wood from rot to some degree.
Likely??Possibly?? Want to add an "If" in there somewhere? Science demands proof, not a bunch of unsupported maybes and ifs. If you can find me something to support your claims about how coral would form on a wooden structure and take the shape of that structure even possibly preserving some of it, then by all means point it out to me, I am always open to learning by being proven wrong. It shouldn't be too hard considering all the ship wrecks that have occurred on or near coral reefs.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2011 9:40 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 261 by Buzsaw, posted 08-06-2011 6:28 PM fearandloathing has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 254 of 349 (627838)
08-04-2011 1:26 PM


hilarity ensues
While looking up more about this crap I came across this site
Page not found – Pinkoski.com
Where it says.
quote:
UPDATE: New tests done!
There have been some "controversies" about the depth of the underwater landbridge that extends across the Gulf of Aqaba from the beach at Nuweiba -- and in May of 2000 a group from Australia and New Zealand went to the site and did extensive testing using Simrad CE32 Chart Plotter plus GPS to carry out depth soundings. It seems that the British Admiralty maps are inaccurate and unreliable -- our new tests matched the results of the Israeli Marine Geology Mapping & Tectonics Division. The Israelis report, "There IS a land bridge off Nuweiba" -- but we must remember that the Exodus happened over 3,400 years ago, and the underwater landbridge will have eroded and deteriorated over the years.
See an Update about this discovery on Page not found - Anchor Stone International and see the new depth printout at Page not found - Anchor Stone International
Both the links are dead.
Hilarious.
Also no where is there a reference to the supposed Israeli claim.
Maybe this is what they wanted to link to, but it doenst seem to provide any evidence at all.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 255 of 349 (627843)
08-04-2011 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by Buzsaw
08-04-2011 9:40 AM


Re: Coyote's (abe: Creation Science) Evasion
The coral likely formed before the wood rotted...
What is/are the species of coral that these formation consist of?

It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds
soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 252 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2011 9:40 AM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
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