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Author Topic:   Is America a Christian Nation?
Coyote
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 76 of 206 (547806)
02-22-2010 10:00 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Buzsaw
02-22-2010 9:52 PM


Re: Representative Leadership
Congress shall not forbid the free exercise of religion. Freely exercising legislates nothing. Anything which gets out of hand can be handily handled at the poles.

Preferably at the south pole. That's farther away.

Seriously, the whole reason behind claiming we are a "Christian nation" is to impose the likes and dislikes of Christians on everyone.

What if "everyone" doesn't want to play along?

(Remember The Enlightenment?)

“Forgive him, Caesar – he is a barbarian and considers that the customs of his tribe are the laws of nature.” G.B. Shaw, Caesar and Cleopatra


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
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anglagard
Member
Posts: 2189
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 77 of 206 (547822)
02-23-2010 1:09 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Coyote
02-22-2010 10:00 PM


Imposing Specific Cult Beliefs Upon All
Coyote writes:

Seriously, the whole reason behind claiming we are a "Christian nation" is to impose the likes and dislikes of Christians on everyone.

The term "Christian Nation" under these circumstances IMO is little more than a code word to impose a specific form of Christianity, namely Seventh-Day Adventist and Pentecostal beliefs upon everyone, just as all the attempts to force such systems into the schools, upon a good scratch beneath the surface, finds the same cause.

Unfortunately adding to their numbers are some Southern Baptists (who exist due to their support of slavery in turn causing the split in 1845) often found in league with the (sometimes even unwitting) sworn enemies of democracy, science, and basic human rights.

Is the push behind such declarations coming from Methodists, Presbyterians, Lutherans, or Episcopalians? Ask any of these "Christian Nation" types if they would include Catholics in such a description.

What is even more ironic is neither the Seventh Day Adventist, Pentecostal, nor Southern Baptist churches even existed in either 1776 or 1789.

Using the term Christian is probably far too broad in this case unless, like the aforementioned cult systems, you would deny all outside of the Seventh Day Adventists, Pentecostals, and some of their Southern Baptist lackeys the right to self-describe their own religious beliefs.

Edited by anglagard, : Add 'sometimes even unwitting' since some religious fanatics are truly too stupid to even realize they are essentially anti-Constitution and therefore just as anti-American as any terrorist, domestic or foreign.

Edited by anglagard, : Make it clear that Southern Baptists split from the general Baptist Church due to their support of the institution of slavery.

Edited by anglagard, : Add that percentage of Southern Baptists that are just shills for their fire-and-brimstone, anti-intellectual masters under irony.


The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas - uncertainty, progress, change - into crimes.
— Salman Rushdie

This rudderless world is not shaped by vague metaphysical forces. It is not God who kills the children. Not fate that butchers them or destiny that feeds them to the dogs. It’s us. Only us. - the character Rorschach in Watchmen


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 206 (547835)
02-23-2010 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Coyote
02-22-2010 10:00 PM


Re: Representative Leadership
Coyote writes:

Preferably at the south pole. That's farther away.

So you decry the idea of a republic, Coyote? What would be a better system?


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 273 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 79 of 206 (547840)
02-23-2010 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Buzsaw
02-23-2010 8:43 AM


Re: Representative Leadership
Coyote writes:

Preferably at the south pole. That's farther away.

So you decry the idea of a republic, Coyote? What would be a better system?


You missed the joke entirely!

You wrote "pole" when you meant "poll" and I just made a joke out of it.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Buzsaw, posted 02-23-2010 8:43 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
ZenMonkey
Member (Idle past 2677 days)
Posts: 428
From: Portland, OR USA
Joined: 09-25-2009


Message 80 of 206 (547841)
02-23-2010 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
02-22-2010 9:21 PM


Re: James "I Wrote The Bill Of Rights" Madison
Sigh.

Buz, your quotes here are often either outright fabrications or simply unconfirmed. This is what happens when you get your information from right-wing/Christian websites. It's an echo chamber of cut-n-paste - someone makes something up and then it gets passed on from website to church bulletin to website again. Relieable sources, who've actually done the research, usually don't confirm the validity of these quote-fests.

But even if these quotes are all acurate, they'd still be completely irrelevant. It doesn't matter one little bit whether the Founders and their friends were true blue Bible-believe Christians or if they were incestuous goat-fuckers from Mars. George Washington may have grown dope too, but that doesn't make us a nation based on marijuana appreciation.* It's the Constitution that the founders produced that matters, not their personal beliefs. It's the Constitution that establishes the foundation of the United States. And unless you show me all those references to Jesus and the Ten Commandments in the Constitution that I seem to have missed, you can produce all the Praise-the-Lord quotes that you like, fake or otherwise. It still doesn't make this a Christian nation.

*Yeah, I know, he only grew it for hemp to make rope with. Another president who didn't inhale.


I have no time for lies and fantasy, and neither should you. Enjoy or die.
-John Lydon
This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16097
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 81 of 206 (547849)
02-23-2010 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Buzsaw
02-22-2010 9:21 PM


Re: James "I Wrote The Bill Of Rights" Madison
The only one of those quotes even remotely relevant to the subject under discussion is the last one.

And I take it to be a fairly damning admission. He pretty much admits that people wouldn't read the Bible unless it is made compulsory.

You, and he, apparently think that this is a good reason to force children to read the Bible. I think that it's a good reason not to force children to read the Bible. If the inability of Christians to forcibly cram their dogma down the throats of children does indeed lead to the "extirpation" of Christianity, then let me know, because that's a grave I would be happy to dance on.


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 82 of 206 (547881)
02-23-2010 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by ZenMonkey
02-23-2010 10:17 AM


Re: James "I Wrote The Bill Of Rights" Madison
Zen, those quotes are not in the Constitution. They are quotes of the signers on to the Constitution relative to what kind of a nation they proposed. Most of them were early presidents. Most of those quotes were about exercising Christianity and not about establishing any sect.

They did not want any sect established such as the Anglican Church which was tied up with the Brittish government and certainly didn't want Catholicism established as it was pretty much all over the civilized world back in the Dark Ages.

They left exercisement of Christianity open to change from what they were practicing. Thus it has been changed to a more secular nation. I don't see why you people have a problem with that. I'm certainly not advocating establishment of my religious beliefs into law.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.
This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5675
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006


Message 83 of 206 (547898)
02-23-2010 5:49 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
02-23-2010 3:57 PM


Re: James "I Wrote The Bill Of Rights" Madison
They are quotes of the signers on to the Constitution relative to what kind of a nation they proposed. Most of them were early presidents. Most of those quotes were about exercising Christianity and not about establishing any sect.

Those quotes make no sense in relation to the well-attested writings that contradict what you are alleging. What would they go out of their way to establish no formal religion only to really want Christianity to to be the baseline? Why didn't they ever refer to Christ?

They left exercisement of Christianity open to change from what they were practicing. Thus it has been changed to a more secular nation. I don't see why you people have a problem with that. I'm certainly not advocating establishment of my religious beliefs into law.

Then it is useless to refer to America as a "Christian nation" unless you do want society to reflect upon Judeo-Christian ideals. The reality is that there exists the freedom of religion to practice however you feel is necessary and the intentional neutrality on the government's part in establishing, condoning or disowning a religion.

If you mean that the majority of Americans are Christian to mean that America is a Christian nation, then no one would reasonably disagree. You seem to think that Christianity compelled the Founding Fathers to be the way they were. That just is not true in any sense.


"Political correctness is tyranny with manners." -- Charlton Heston
This message is a reply to:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 2356 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 84 of 206 (547910)
02-23-2010 9:14 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Buzsaw
02-23-2010 3:57 PM


Re: James "I Wrote The Bill Of Rights" Madison
I'm certainly not advocating establishment of my religious beliefs into law.

Maybe you aren't but there seem to be many fundies who do. ie: James Dodson, Sarah Palin, Pat Robertson etc.


There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002

Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008


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Percy
Member
Posts: 18484
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 85 of 206 (551069)
03-20-2010 4:09 PM


Founding Father Quotes
I'm watching Bill Maher's documentary Religulous. Anyone who has ever found themselves tongue-tied while discussing Christian beliefs with Christians will greatly enjoy this video as Maher gets the best of one Christian after another. I got the video from Netflix.

But the reason I'm posting is because at around 32:30 the video displays three quotes from the founding fathers:

"Lighthouses are more useful than churches."
--Benjamin Franklin

"This would be the best of all possible worlds if there were no religion in it."
--John Adams

"Christianity is the most perverted system that has ever shone on man."
--Thomas Jefferson

I did a search to see if these quotes have appeared at EvC Forum before, and they have, but sparingly. However, I thought this post from Rahvin, Message 106, deserved mention. It contains a large number of quotes from Founding Fathers about religion generally and Christianity specifically - a good and ready reference. There are probably other messages in that thread that also have good material.

--Percy


    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12424
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 86 of 206 (628069)
08-06-2011 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ZenMonkey
02-14-2010 3:18 PM


Has to be content and not source of moral character
Find the word "Jesus" or the Ten Commandments in the Constitution and then you can start to make a case.

Keep in mind that the constitution is not a belief.

Our collective individual beliefs are what makes us a Christian, Islamic, or as it happens, secular nation.

Personally, I dont really agree with everything stated in The Humanist Manifesto II To wit:

quote:
As nontheists, we begin with humans not God, nature not deity. Nature may indeed be broader and deeper than we now know; any new discoveries, however, will but enlarge our knowledge of the natural.
Who are they to claim that we are non theists? And why cant I start everything off with God instead of a bunch of mortal imperfections?

Of course, the content of our national character counts more than the source that we claim (by majority)


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30988
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 87 of 206 (628073)
08-06-2011 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Thugpreacha
08-06-2011 3:13 PM


Re: Has to be content and not source of moral character
Phat writes:

Who are they to claim that we are non theists? And why cant I start everything off with God instead of a bunch of mortal imperfections?

It's a good thing that they don't make that claim then.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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pandion
Member (Idle past 1167 days)
Posts: 166
From: Houston
Joined: 04-06-2009


(6)
Message 88 of 206 (628150)
08-07-2011 12:57 AM


Christian Nation Quiz
Forgive my late arrival to this thread, but I missed it the first time around. It only came to my attention when it popped to the top in the last couple of days. The "Christian Nation" fantasy has always been one of my hot buttons, since it is such a ridiculous argument. The argument prompted the following quiz.

But first, I just can't resist my pedantic nature.

Buzsaw: it's "per se" not "perse". It is Latin and means "through, by, or in itself."

As for the assertion that at the time of the Revolution the colonies were 75 to 90% christian, historians disagree. In fact, a high estimate of christian church membership is about 15% before the Revolution. And since the christian clergy overwhelmingly supported the crown, the number of christian churches decreased as clergy fled to England because of their unpopular views.

So here's the quiz.

Christian Nation Quiz

It seems to me that if the founding fathers of this country were very bright, and I think they were, then if their intentions were to form a "Christian Nation" it would be clearly evident in our founding documents. I mean, aside from their private writings where no indication of such intent can be found, wouldn't such intent be clear in the very documents that declared and established this country?

To that end, I have examined some of the early documents, written by these founding fathers, upon which this nation was founded. First, there is the Declaration of Independence. While the view of the founding fathers was that the Declaration did not found a new nation, but rather returned the power to govern to the source, i.e., the people, this document is often cited as evidence of a “Christian Nation” by advocates of a repressive theocracy. The Declaration of Independence left the 13 Colonies without a legislative body and without law. As the founding fathers expressed at the time, the people were returned to the state of nature.

Second, I have examined the eleven constitutions, written concurrently with or immediately after the Declaration in 1776 and 1777, which reestablished governments in ten of the newly independent states, and also established the independent Republic of New Connecticut (now known as Vermont) from the disputed territories that were claimed by Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and New York. Three colonies (Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut) didn't draft and adopt constitutions until later and instead reverted to a previous charter.

Third, I examined the Articles of Confederation, the initial founding document of The United States of America, The Constitution itself, and the Bill of Rights.

So here are some questions about these documents. Keep in mind that the intent of the founding fathers to form a “Christian Nation” should be quite clear in these documents, if that were their intent.

1. The Declaration shows the intention to form a “Christian Nation” in that it mentions Jesus Christ how many times? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

Of course, everyone knows the answer. This initial document of the United States mentions Jesus zero times. A bit peculiar upon the founding of a “Christian Nation,” don’t you think?

2. The Declaration shows the intention to form a “Christian Nation” in that it mentions God how many times? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

I’m sure you all got this right too. God is mentioned one time. Sadly for the “Christian Nation” crowd, “Nature and Nature’s God” is an expression typical of deism, written by Thomas Jefferson, an undisputed deist. The deity was typically mentioned as the “Creator,” or “Divine Providence” (also in the Declaration). The idea was that nature was established by the deity who then had no further part in the course of events – thus, “Nature’s God.”

3. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is Jesus mentioned?. a. zero, b. one, c. five, d. eleven.

A hint. It’s more than zero. It’s true. Even at the state level, in founding Christian governments, the drafters of the state constitutions failed to mention Jesus Christ more than a single time, specified in the oath taken by the legislators in a single state, Delaware. While it may not have been a Christian Nation, at least in Delaware only Christians and liars could be members of the legislature.

4. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is the word “Christian” used? a. zero, b. three, c. six, d. nine

Bet you thought you had this one too. The correct answer is six times in three of the 11 constitutions. But that isn't necessarily a good thing for the “Christian Nation” advocates. Let’s consider New York first. Article XXXV of the Constitution of New York of April, 1777 states in part, “That all such parts of…common law, and…statutes and acts…as may be construed to establish or maintain any particular denomination of Christians or their ministers, …are repugnant to this constitution,…and they hereby are, abrogated and rejected.”

The Constitution of Virginia of June 1776 states in Sec 16 of the Bill of Rights, “That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator…can be directed only by reason and conviction…and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.” That isn't really establishing a “Christian” government but an encouragement to the people to respect the right of each person to practice religion as he sees fit.

Finally, there is the Maryland Constitution of November, 1776. Christianity is mentioned twice in Article XXXIII where it states that every man has the right and duty to worship God any such a manner as seems most acceptable to him. It mentions Christians when it specifically extends the same right to those “professing the Christian religion.” In that same article, the legislature is authorized to levy taxes for the support of religion. However, control of where that money is to be spent is retained by the citizen rather than being given to the established state religion. Further on, in Articles XXXV and again in Article LV, a belief in the “Christian Religion,” along with requirements to reject the sovereignty of the King and to swear allegiance to the state, is specified as a requirement to hold elective or appointive office. It also states that no further religious test is required. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court found a similar provision in the Maryland Constitution unconstitutional when a man appointed as a notary public was denied that commission by a court clerk because he refused to declare his belief in God. (Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961))

At any rate, here in the Constitution of Maryland we do find intent to form a “Christian Nation.” However, I don’t think that two of the 13 states that we have found so far are enough to ascribe that view to the founding fathers from all states.

5. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is there a reference to the “Creator?” a. zero, b. four, c. eight, d. twelve

Did you take a lucky guess and say eight? Then you are wrong because it is four. In the Constitution of New York of April, 1777 the Declaration of Independence is quoted, all of it. Thus, just as the Declaration contains one reference to the Creator, so does the Constitution of New York.

In the Constitution of Pennsylvania of September, 1776, the form of the oath to be taken by members of the state assembly contains the word “Creator.” “I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.” It goes on to state that there should be no further religious test. Here was the perfect place to specify a “Christian Nation” (or at least a Christian State) and it misses the mark. It doesn't require a belief in Christianity and thus, even deists could be members of the state assembly. Thus, Benjamin Franklin was not only a member, but the President of the Executive Council.

Since the Constitution of Vermont of July, 1777 was an almost verbatim copy of the Constitution of Pennsylvania, it contains one reference to a “Creator” in the oath sworn by members of the state legislature.

The single mention of a “Creator” in the Constitution of Virginia has already been mentioned in question 4. Remember that it was in reference to the duty to practice religion and that every man is free to do so as he sees fit.

Also remember that use of “Creator” for the deity was typical of deists and apparently acceptable for Christians.

6. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is there a reference to “God?” a. zero, b. eight, c. eighteen, d. twenty-eight.

Of course, the mention of God is not an indication that one is a Christian. Such a claim would be silly in the extreme. However, the 11 state constitutions mention God a total of twenty eight times. Delaware = 2 – both times in the profession of faith for legislators. Georgia = 4 – in all cases as “so help me God” in the form of the oaths for various offices. Maryland = 1 – in the previously mentioned (in question 4) statement of freedom of religion from Article XXXIII. New Jersey = 1 – in a rather forceful statement of religious freedom in Article XVIII. New York = 2 – the first being the previously mentioned quote of the entire Declaration of Independence and the second being in Article XXXIX, where it prohibits ministers of religion from holding any state office. Peculiar if the intent was to establish a “Christian Nation.” North Carolina = 2 – once in a weak statement of religious freedom, and once in Article XXXII, where denial of God or the Protestant faith prohibits service in any state office. (So that makes 3 “Christian Nations.”) Pennsylvania = 3 – twice in Article II, a forceful statement of religious freedom, and once in Sect. 10, in the oath taken by legislators. South Carolina = 1 – in the oath taken by legislators. Vermont = 12 – 9 are in the form of various oaths, and 3 are in the statement of religious freedom.

7. In how many of the 13 original states plus the Republic of Vermont were members of the clergy allowed to sit in the legislature? a. fourteen, b. nine, c. five, d. three.

I presume that the answer is five, since nine states expressly forbade members of the clergy from being elected to the legislature. Some were stricter than others and prohibited clergy members from holding any office in government or commission in the militia. The states were Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, New York, South Carolina, and New Hampshire.

8. How many total times did the Articles of Confederation mention God, Jesus, Christian, Creator, or religion? a. zero, b. three, c. five, d. seven

You’re getting the hang of this by now, aren't you? Yes, it’s true. The initial founding document of the United States of America, the Articles of Confederation, contained references to any of the above zero times. Wouldn't it be more logical that if it were the intent of the men who wrote the Articles of Confederation to establish a “Christian Nation” there would be some mention of Jesus, God, or religion?

9. How many times does the Constitution of the United States mention God, Jesus, Creator, or Christian? a. zero, b. three, c. five, d. seven.

I’m sure you got this one right too. Again, the answer is zero times. It’s a peculiar state of affairs for a document that is purported to establish a “Christian Nation.”

10. How many times does the Constitution of the United States make any reference to religion? a. zero, b. one, c. two, d. three.

I know that it seems strange for a “Christian Nation,” but the answer is once, in 3. of Article VI. “but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

11. How many times does the Bill of Rights mention God, Jesus, Creator, Christian, or make any reference to religion? a. zero, b. one, c. two, d. three.

You all got this one too, right? The answer is, of course, one time in the First Amendment. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” Again, strange if the purpose was the establishment of a “Christian Nation.”

12. How many of the 13 original colonies had an established religion at one time or another in their history? a. thirteen, b. twelve, c. eight, d. five.

Every one of them with the exception of Rhode Island. One of the final works of James Madison before he left for the Continental Convention of 1787 was to defeat a bill that would have paid “teachers of Christian religion” from taxes, and then to reintroduce Jefferson’s religious freedom bill that essentially disestablished the Anglican church in Virginia. The last state to have an established church was the Congregational church of Massachusetts. There is a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams congratulating Adams on the occasion.

13. “Christian Nation” advocates claim that they are correct because most of the people of the 13 colonies were Christians. In reality, according to historians, what percentage of the people actually attended any church at around the time of the Revolution? a. 75-90%, b. 50-75%, c. 20-50%, d. 5-20%.

Did you guess d? Right. For example, Lynn R. Buzzard, executive director of the Christian Legal Society states that not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders deists, but that perhaps as little as 5% of the populace were church members. Other sources (I have 5 more) place the number as low as 4% up to 10-15%.

14. True or false. The Constitution of the United States does not mention the separation of church and state.

A big talking point with the “Christian Nation” crowd, it is true. But our Constitution is based on the principle that any power not granted to the federal government by the Constitution is reserved to the people and the states. Thus, since no religious powers are granted, the federal government has no right to legislate in religious matters. At least this is what was argued at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Nevertheless, the First Amendment formalized the restriction on the Congress. It was actually Thomas Jefferson who stated that the purpose of the First Amendment was to erect a “wall of separation” between church and state.

And isn't it funny that “Christian Nation” advocates think that it is meaningful that the separation of church and state isn't specifically mentioned, and yet have no problem with the fact that God, Jesus, and Christian Nation aren't mentioned either?

15. How many of the first 7 Presidents of the United States were Christians? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

According to the Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, “among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion.” Rev. Wilson, in the same sermon in 1831 asserted that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had to that time been elected, not a one had professed a belief in Christianity. Those Presidents were Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, J.Q. Adams, and Jackson. During his time as President Jackson was never known to attend church. However, after he left the Presidency and retired to Nashville, he joined the First Presbyterian Church. He was more than 70 at the time.

It seems to me that if it was the intention to found a “Christian Nation” that their intent would be quite clear. The founding fathers of at least three states had no problem in making their intentions known. To participate in those governments a citizen had to be a Christian. In others, it seems that deism would also have been acceptable. But in our “Christian Nation” matters of religion are dealt with only in the form of restrictions on the part of the government to interfere with the free practice of any religion. To me the intent to form a secular nation is quite clear.

It is interesting to me that a couple of weeks ago my son and I were having lunch at a pizza place. A guy across from us began telling the guy at the same table about the Army. I served in the Army and my son is currently in the Army. We began to look at each other and laugh about the opinions of this moron who obviously never served in the Army. Then he moved on to how the U.S. was created by god, because it said so (he read it) in Article XIII of the Constitution. Neither my son or I responded in any way, other than a bit of snickering between us. And yet, this christian nation zealot thought that it was necessary to stand and declare to us about how he had read the Constitution and what it said in Article XIII.


Replies to this message:
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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 2535 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 89 of 206 (628360)
08-09-2011 5:03 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by pandion
08-07-2011 12:57 AM


Re: Christian Nation Quiz
America was founded by a puritan /Evangelical protestant English people. Virginia by a regular English people of the anglican church. then further British immigration added to all this.
Yankee america in its moral, intellectual, society, and any essence or identity that separates itself from other peoples is entirely from Puritan protestantism.
The people and the establishment.
in the south it was also protestant but less religious greatly.

America was and was always segregated protestant peoples until in minor ways immigration brought others.

America is christian more then any other nation in human history in passion and results from that in character and intellect and soul.

When these segregated peoples united to form a new nation it was indeed not to be any particular protestant sect or even protestant or religious in its government.
Many also meant in its identity but others presumed it would still be a protestant civilization in all ways including the nations soul.
It was.

so if a christian people form a nation does it make it a christian nation.
I say no.
It wasn't a spoken intent to make the collective identity any religious identity. It was just to unite the thirteen colonies.
it wasn't talked about or a subject.
it didn't matter. they couldn't be the identity they were because of segregation of religious identies.
So it didn't matter greatly or since unless threatened or perceived threatened.

America was Christian because her peoples were and it mattered in how they ran things.
Yet no one would say America is a Christian nation since it would force non Christians to think they are not fully American.
The identity is first as a nation of the people within the boundary.
if the nation was christian then it would be united to any other Christian nation.
Yet the boundaries are the identity and so its not a Christian nation.
its just the people regardless of religion.

Those who stress America is not a cHristian nation really are trying to say its not a Christian civilization.
It is in all ways despite rejected presumptions of cHristianity today.

America is simply a civilization founded by and on Christian worldview and today is influenced by this past and by present Christian influences.
The word nation is the error here.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by pandion, posted 08-07-2011 12:57 AM pandion has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by pandion, posted 08-09-2011 10:43 AM Robert Byers has responded
 Message 93 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2011 10:49 AM Robert Byers has responded
 Message 94 by Taq, posted 08-09-2011 3:14 PM Robert Byers has responded

    
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 12424
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 90 of 206 (628380)
08-09-2011 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
08-06-2011 3:25 PM


Re: Has to be content and not source of moral character
I quoted directly from the Humanist Manifesto II.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 08-06-2011 3:25 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 08-09-2011 8:39 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
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