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Member (Idle past 4422 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Kent Hovind | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
Why did the big bang go bang? Scientist: we dont knowCreationist: creator What was there before the big bang? Scientist: we dont knowCreationist creator Whyt started life?Scientist: we have a few working hypothesis Creationist: creator How did life came to be as it is nowScientist: Evolution Creationist: creator Why does gravitiy wor as it does?Scientist: we are working on it we have some working hypothesis Creationist: creator Instead of all of this, just look at the logical possibilites, because if you reject the scriptures, that is all you have. Wouldnt you agree
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
You provided evidence of the creator and of how he influenced evolution? Really? Where? Oh, and did God turn out to be Christian, Islam, Hindu, Buddhist or other? Yes I did. Jar refuses to provide any response. I set out a logical argument demonstrating those things I tried to get him to demonstrae why he believes his evidence is more or better, he did nothing i tried to get him to show me the process of natural causes from start to finish, he wouldnt
I think you're providing wonderful examples of a couple of the creationist approaches to debate: making claims that you've proved things you've never proved, and misunderstanding how evidence works. If I am mistaken on how evidence works,atleast in this instance, anyone is free to step up to the plate to demonstrate me wrong My creationis approach is irrefutalbe and irresistible. If it is not then demostrae why Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
You mean "Why do I reject a false dichotomy?". That should answer itself as well. No that is not what I am saying. I am initially saying, demonstrate why you think you have evidence of natural causes that are the cause of everything. Observing existence itself is not tantamount to knowing the cause of existence. Wouldnt you agree But this is where you, Jar and the others have started with a misleading and false premise. Are you ready to admit you have no evidence of natural causes, or will you continue with your word play Dawn Bertot
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jar Member (Idle past 394 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
So far the only evidence is that of natural causes.
There is evidence of natural causes. No evidence has EVER been presented of any cause other than a natural cause. Please present the evidence of the creator or the method used by that critter to influence evolution or of some NOT NATURAL cause. Until you present evidence equal to the evidence of natural causes you have nothing.
Since there is evidence that there are natural causes but no evidence of a creator or any method used by that critter to influence evolution logic demands that until such evidence is presented that the creator or the method used by that critter be simply disregarded. It really is that simple.Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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Instead of all of this, just look at the logical possibilites, because if you reject the scriptures, that is all you have. Wouldnt you agree You always seem to miss a step. It is not about rejecting scripture. It is a lack of evidence which does not allow us to accept scripture. It is evidence first, then acceptance.
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Taq Member Posts: 9973 Joined: Member Rating: 5.7
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I am initially saying, demonstrate why you think you have evidence of natural causes that are the cause of everything. I am not claiming that I know what caused everything. You are making claims that you know what caused everything. I am asking for evidence that backs up your claims. Where is it?
Are you ready to admit you have no evidence of natural causes, or will you continue with your word play Word games? I am not the one shifting the burden of proof and using false dichotomies. That would be you.
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4422 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
hey Dawn,
I have posted this previously but you must have missed it. I have been referring to you as female in my posts. I know two Dawns, both female so it was the natural thing for me to do. Other posters have now advised you are male so I will do so from now on. Sorry for the error. I have posted about logic on this thread and it covers some of your questions and statements regarding logic. I wrote it after being tied in knots by discussions mostly with IamJoseph. I notice you are still using terms logic and premise when discussing your point of view. Check out my post for another point of view. here it is (again) -
Message 200
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frako Member (Idle past 306 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined:
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Instead of all of this, just look at the logical possibilites, because if you reject the scriptures, that is all you have. Wouldnt you agree That would be the Viking scriptures right talk about a god right, he said im gonna deal wit those Ice giants once and for all and there has not been an ice giant around in thousands of years now that is what i call a miracle.
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
I'm sure I've missed some evidences which corroborate the arsenal of evidence which creationists should be citing, whether or not the skeptics admit to it. Not at all, a very impressive post.
Creationists have fumbled the evidence ball due to apathy and reliance on blind faith. Faith should not be blind. The great Apostle Paul advised to "Prove all things." in his 1st letter to the Thessalonians, yet he is know as a great man of faith. Corroborated data, such as distances, positions, temperatures, elements, forces, etc relative to the compatibility of our planet for life adds to your list. These, individually and alone may, perhaps, afford them some skepticism, but corroborated with your list, builds on our arsenal of evidence. Sadly, precious few creationists have studiously corroborated and harmonized the amazing prophecies of the Biblical record. Our pulpits are essentially silent about them. The sheeple in the pews haven't a clue, nor do they care. Having studied them for decades, they have become a significant factor in convincing me of the existence of higher intelligence existing in the Universe. Again don't expect any amount of this evidence to be acknowledged by our secularist friends. Poor deluded folk. Corroborating prophecy with prophecy and pigeonholing them into the proper time frame is not for novices. It's been a 66 year study for me. The more I read and analyze them, the more I see their significance as we observe their fulfillment in what is turning out to be the 'latter times." I would not presume to question your knowledge of prophecy and its related applications to evidences or thier fulfillment it sounds as though you should write a thesis or a book concerning this issue, I would certainly buy it I understand what you meanabout dropping the ball though, some are afraid to even present them as evidence, because they are unconfident in thier abilites or the information In this instance I believe we are involved with a different breed of cat that would ignore such obvious evidence. We need to meet and destroy them on thier own turf Remember when the Lord admonished disciples that this kind of evil spirit comes out only with much pray and fasting. Indicating that there are different levels of evil and it needs to be dealt with differently These fellas need to be met on thier own turf and destroyed there They need to be shown, as they incoreectly suppose, that they have somthing any better than anyone else, as evidence Anyway very nice post, I enjoyed it Dawn Bertot Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given. Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
1. Many premises put forward are unwarranted assumptions. If a premise has not been established with enough certainty to be considered true, then it cant be used to start a logical argument. The conclusion may end up being true but as it has been reached from a faulty premise, it is irrelevant. This is the problem that a lot of Creationists face here. Many on the other side already view their premise as faulty so the arguement is lost before it begins. If your beginning premise is that God or a deity of some sort exists, then you have an unwarranted assumption as the premise. As you know for a premise to be invalid it has to be unwaarented or faulty. By faulty, it is meant, it is a logical contradiction. By unwarrented of course we mean there is no valid reason for beliving in it to begin with Theism does neither, or atleast, it need not. simply because the idea of the eixstence of God has been around for a long time does not mean that that is how the premise was formed to begin with. Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise. Not the other way around So your assertion of stating with an unwarrented premise is unwarrented.
I would argue that the assumption that there are no deities is a much stronger logical, warranted assumption to begin with. You can argue whatever you want, but its nonsensical to assume the evidence is greater when the evidence is the same for both positions
Noone can start from the premise that there is a god. This can only be taught. Wrong
This is some serious bullshit Dawn. For someone who discusses a very strong attatchment to logic (often at great length), it would seem odd that you can even have this thought, let alone put it onto the forum. In what reality do you think that a position on one subject or point requires and explanation of everything? In a discussion on the origin of existence. Havent you been paying attention to what we are discussing In the argument or should I say assertion that says, there are only evidences of natural causes. Now if I am not mistaken that is indirectly implying that one can demonstrate that from start to finish it falls to a logical proposition, the likes of which creationism is a more than valid and warrented consideration, yes as even as evidence The evidence at hand doesnt need your approval to be evidence Dawn Bertot
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2284 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.8
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Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise.
and your evidence for this assertion is?It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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Dawn Bertot Member Posts: 3571 Joined: |
and your evidence for this assertion is? Observation, evaluation, experimentation and even accidental discoveries are what what drive conclusions, not the other way around. Dawn Bertot
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Panda Member (Idle past 3713 days) Posts: 2688 From: UK Joined: |
Dawn Bertot writes:
Unlike Dr. Jones, I will not ask you for the evidence that you clearly do not have. Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise.Firstly I would have to educate you about what evidence is, and then I would have to educate you in how to form coherent sentences. Since no-one else has succeeded in teaching you English - I doubt that it would be possible to do so via a forum. I am sure that your school was deeply ashamed at how poorly they educated you. You would probably claim it is dyslexia - if you could spell it - but I think you are simply old-school stupid.
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DrJones* Member Posts: 2284 From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 6.8 |
Would you mind answering my question? Do you have evidence to support the assertion:
Someone along time ago in a galaxay far far away observed the available evidence, law order an purpose, design etc and used this available evidence to form a valid, warrented premise. It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds soon I discovered that this rock thing was true Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world And so there was only one thing I could do Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On *not an actual doctor
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8513 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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and your evidence for this assertion is? Observation, evaluation, experimentation and even accidental discoveries are what what drive conclusions, not the other way around. No, Dawn, this does not answer what is being asked.
quote: What observations are leading you to this assertion. More description is called for. Take this opportunity to be verbose.
quote: This doesn't say anything. What "evaluation"? Walk us through this evaluation, step-by-step. Depending on the evidence you are evaluating this should take at least a couple paragraphs of details of your evaluation.
quote: What experimentation? What specific hypotheses was being tested? How was the experiment conducted? What were the controls, null-hypothesis, equipment, sensors, etc. What were the raw results and your conclusions? If you take just one such experiment and relay some of these details this may help us get a better feel for what you are going on about.
quote: Which ones? How do they evidence your assertion? Remember in all this DrJones is referring specificaly to your statement:
quote:in your Message 295 so no need to expand your explanations beyond what evidence you used to make these specific determinations are necessary unless you feel they would add understanding for us. Edited by AZPaul3, : spelin
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