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Author Topic:   How do you share new disbelief with friends and family?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 1 of 29 (629551)
08-18-2011 1:02 PM


So a few weeks ago I summoned the courage to post my departure from faith over at: Jazzns' History of Belief
I got a little less feedback than I had hoped but hey, what are you gonna do, its the internet.
I wanted to bring a little bit of it back up though because of one issue. The one bit of advice I was hoping to get from some fellow recovering Christians on this board is what to do about my friends and family that are still in the faith. Most of my change has been very internal and very private. To them, this will seem like it is coming out of nowhere even though for me this has been an agonizing, multi-year long process.
From feedback I got from some of my close non-Christian friends, they said that I might write a different version of the letter that isn't as "harsh" and use that as a foil for bringing it up. My only problem with that is that I don't know of a way to say that I left the faith because I discovered that the Bible is full of crap without coming out and saying exactly that. Without that information, I feel that many of them will think that I am coming to this conclusion out of ignorance which is the exact opposite of where I feel it is derived.
I can see some definite potential for some strained relationships because of this so I don't want to do this the wrong way. I am okay without being all "RA RA!" about this but I don't want to this be a surprise someday because of other factors. My kids are growing up and I think there will be more and more pressure from family to be sending them to church, vacation bible school, etc. I don't mind the kids going to church actually but I certainly am not going to just let them be brain washed. My beliefs will not be a surprise to my kids otherwise I feel I would be irresponsible as a parent. Therefore this will eventually come out from them. I want to take care of this tactfully before then.
The thing that sucks the most about this is that I don't feel like anything should need to change. I don't feel like I am a substantially different person. I still have the same value for the relationships that I have always had. But I feel like I could really loose something merely for honestly expressing my beliefs.
I hope there are some folks out there who have had to deal with this. How do you walk up to someone you love and tell them that you have rejected their faith, and by all accounts according to their beliefs, you are now a heretic and destined for damnation?
Faith and Belief please.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Coragyps, posted 08-18-2011 2:24 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 4 by dwise1, posted 08-18-2011 3:58 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 5 by Rahvin, posted 08-18-2011 4:55 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2011 6:35 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 12:23 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-19-2011 11:21 AM Jazzns has replied
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-21-2011 3:26 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 8 of 29 (629624)
08-19-2011 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by dwise1
08-18-2011 3:58 PM


Damnation?
As for a version of the letter that's less harsh, to start with sending out a letter could invite confrontation, which is something that I don't think you want. But working on a less harsh version of the letter could prepare you with responses for when it does come up. Like saying that you can't accept the Bible as you used to and being able to give some valid reasons for having such doubts. And finding a way to affirm to them that it's not something that they can talk you out of.
I feel like I am well girdled for answering the potential criticism. In fact, I feel like that might be part of my problem. I have been picturing my future in a confrontational manner and doing mental reps of what I would say in response to all the scenarios I can think of. I feel though like I may be missing an approach or a way to think about the problem because I am so buried in the details.
FWIW, that question of damnation came up for me too this past decade. In the wake of my son's death, some well-meaning people tried to "help" by trying to convert me. But because by their doctrine he would be damned, they were actually trying to get me to embrace a belief system in which my son would spend eternity in Hell. I am not such a monster as to wish that upon my son.
One of my first skeptical moments came when I realized that one of my parents had to be wrong. Either my mom was right and my dad was unsaved or my dad was right and my mom is an idolater. A mixed Christian and Muslim family can be very weird. But like you said, I don't know how people deal with the conflict in their head that they basically believe that these people that they love are eternally damned. Shouldn't that drive them absolutely nuts? If that is what really is on the line why aren't they freaking out every single moment about it?
I have been meaning to read Godless but my library doesn't have a copy. I may just go ahead and buy it.
Thanks,
Edited by Jazzns, : fixed subtitle

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 9 of 29 (629628)
08-19-2011 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by Rahvin
08-18-2011 4:55 PM


I'm avoiding it because I know that it will cause my parents and especially my grandparents pain, and I don't want that.
Thats exactly it. I don't think they will reject me. In fact, I highly doubt they would. Its more about the pain it would case. The pain that only exists because they believe and they love me.
As you said, Jazzns, I am the same person, just as you are. There's no need for me to jeopardize their perceptions of me. Of course, I don;t have any children.
Thats the rub for me. I have had the same approach as you so far but there is basically a timer ticking for me. It absolutely WILL come up because of the kids and the day is fast approaching.
I'm slowly testing the waters already, seeing my parents reactions...
Thats an interesting thought. I mean, I am already not going to church. Haven't in many years. Perhaps I should just start to slowly introduce other periphery issues. Still feels like lying though. I find myself wishing for Butterfly's gusto.

This message is a reply to:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 10 of 29 (629629)
08-19-2011 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Butterflytyrant
08-18-2011 11:25 PM


Honesty is always the best policy. I will not lie to my family even if the truth may cause conflict.
That is exactly why I am struggling so much with it. I don't want to lie, but there will eventually be a point where I will have to choose to lie or not lie. And my hand is being forced on that issue. Otherwise I wouldn't even care to discuss it with them. We find plenty to socialize about without talking about god.
I have made some pretty bad calls in my time and I wont hide them from my partner and children. I am not at all suggesting that your decision is a bad one. I am just saying that it is better to get all of the information out there. It may be difficult for your children and partner to understand. If you do decide to let it all out, you will know that you have been honest with everyone and yourself.
Luckily all my very close relationships already know. They weren't founded upon religion so my religious choices have not matter one iota. My wife is cool with it, all my close friends are on board. Its just the legacy of my family and a handful of others that is hard. Grandparents, parents, in-laws, siblings.
I hope it all goes well for you.
Thanks Butterfly.

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 15 of 29 (629690)
08-19-2011 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by crashfrog
08-19-2011 12:23 AM


Why not do what atheists have always done, and just not bring it up?
It will be brought up eventually. I don't think it is unreasonable to prepare for that day.
If you're OK with your kids going to church, and you feel like your family wants them in church, then send them to church!
I am not concerned with them going, but I am not going to send them in order to perpetuate some false sense that we are religious. If my kids want to go I am not going to be against it. I am trying to find a way OUT of lying about my beliefs or how I want to raise my kids. I am trying to be honest and tactful.
There really is a genuine conflict between your family harmony and your desire to articulate your reasons for leaving the faith. So you need to pick which of those is more important, and then do whatever is required to that end. Problem solved.
Well, the reason I brought it up is that I don't feel that it needs to be that black and white. I do feel a need to articulate my beliefs but it has thus far been for my own self and in preparation for potential conflict, not because I need to shout it from the rooftops.
There is a realization that real feeling of people I care about and who care about me are on the line and I am simply trying to be sensitive and thoughtful about that. Simply stating the problem in the form of a delimma doesn't solve it though.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 12:23 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 10:41 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 29 (629693)
08-19-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by AZPaul3
08-18-2011 6:35 PM


Let the kids know, of course. If you teach them well they will make up their own minds, either way, as it should be.
I hope so! They were my inspiration for writing what I did in the first thread to begin with along with a bunch more that are more personal that I haven't shared.
Their godparents are uber-religious so in the worst case if something happened to me, they would not have my influence when they are mature enough to be thinking about these things. Religion personally contributed a significant amount of grief to my life so I would like them to at least know about the alternative and let them decide freely about their beliefs. My personal letters to them express that sentiment in much more detail.
That was all preciptated by some moments where I had to face some stark issues of my own mortality.
As for the rest of the family? I don't know what to say. If it were me I'm thinking I would not make some big splash announcement about it. If the topic comes up then fine. Say my piece like it was nothing new.
There are times I wish I could do something like that. That isn't my personality though. My biggest worry would be that it seems selfish to do that, making a moment all about me, no matter how I could construct it. Especially considering they will likely be shocked, and likely be unhappy about it.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by AZPaul3, posted 08-18-2011 6:35 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 18 of 29 (629699)
08-19-2011 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by hooah212002
08-19-2011 1:21 AM


Why is lack of belief in god(s) something that one needs to be ashamed of?
Its not that I am ashamed. I am in fact not ashamed at all. I would not even be ashamed to tell them. I would feel hurt FOR them though. I am afraid that THEY will be hurt because for them it will be a 180 turn around and according to their superstition, I seem to be hurting myself. But no, I am totally okay and comfortable with my choices so far.
Does a Born Again Christian swelter in fear?
Yes actually! Some seem to be quite fearfull and I have experienced great fear when I was a Christian BECAUSE of my faith.
No, theists shout it from the rooftops. They wear their beliefs like a badge of honor.
Well yea, they do that too. Its a mixed bag really.
Family should be there for you regardless of belief.
I have no doubt that they will be there for me. I am not loosing any family over this issue thankfully. (at least I don't think so) But their version of "being there for me" means being extraordinarily concerned with my eternal soul while also feeling pain and sadness. Imagine for a moment the feeling that your child or sibling is destined for some unimaginally terrible fate. You wouldn't be happy about it. It will also likely make them way more concerned about my kids...now that I think about it. Ugh...

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 29 (629703)
08-19-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by crashfrog
08-19-2011 10:41 AM


Well, I've told you the way out - piss off your entire family by rejecting their religious traditions.
Well yea. Look I understand that that is going to probably happen. I am not going to lie about it. Looking back at the discussion I may have danced around the issue a bit but when confronted I am not going to bald faced lie to people I care about.
There really isn't a third way, here; at least not for you. Whether or not your family reacts to your religious rejection with tolerance and understanding is based on their characteristics as individuals, not in the manner in which you announce your atheism. The fact of the matter is that even a polite "you know, I really just don't believe that there's any such thing as God" is considered unbearably rude by the religious. I said roughly the same thing to my own family a few years ago and it was the only time I'd ever seen my dad cry. Not even when his parents died.
So it is exactly these human, emotional issues that I simply know that I am not very good at navigating. I have invested a lot of time on myself, my own feelings, my own knowledge, etc but very little on expression and understanding others. When the stakes are potentially high then, I don't think its unreasonable to seek advice on the areas where you feel weak.
Well, no. Wrong. The reason you brought it up is that you don't want it to be that black and white. But if you had some actual reason to believe that there was some kind of path of reconciliation you could walk in this regard, wouldn't you already know about it, and not have to ask us?
How would I know about it already? That doesn't make any sense. I have already heard some good stories that have generated ideas about how to approach the situation. I am not looking for a cop-out. I understand that this isn't going to be painless.
Because there's no solution. That's what I'm trying to get across to you.
I only took issue with you seeming to say that the reason I wanted to do this was to articulate my reasons. I took that to mean that you thought I have some desperate desire to "come out" so to speak. If that is not what you meant then I appologize.
I think I am ultimatly looking for "how to do it" rather than an "if I should do it" kinds of ideas.
Take it from someone whose done this. I thought I was prepared and the actual discussion about it was calm and respectful, happened on neutral territory, was basically refereed by my aunt, and there were no significant fireworks.
And then the next day my parents came back and told me that I had done one of the most hurtful things possible to them. And now we pretend like the whole thing never ever happened. There's just not any way to square this circle, Jazzns. It's like telling your parents you're a male prostitute or a gay porn actor or something. It's just not going to be consistent with what your family believes is permissible. There's no resolution to that, and the only way your family will be able to sit at the Thanksgiving table together is if everybody pretends like the conversation never happened, which means they'll still say grace over the dinner table (whether you want to start eating or not) and bug you about your kids going to church.
So I have imagined that scenario, but it is still helpful to hear from others that my imagination isn't crazy.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 10:41 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 11:26 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 21 of 29 (629706)
08-19-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by bluescat48
08-19-2011 8:09 AM


My 3 siblings are , 1 Christian, 1 Deist & 1 Agnostic.
Even Deism is probably bad in these circles although perhaps "less bad". I don't have any problems with Deism, I just don't see the point. It would probably still be lying to claim to be a Deist but it is an interesting though at least.
I am the only Atheist. We get along fine since we don't go in to discussing 4 topics, Sex, Religion, War & Politics, what I call the 4 cornerstones of stupidity.
Well! Those topics are sometimes hard to avoid around our family gatherings. Oddly though I don't think we talk about OUR sex, religion, or politics all that much which is why I have been able to get by thus far. I oppose your label of stupidity though.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by bluescat48, posted 08-19-2011 8:09 AM bluescat48 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 23 of 29 (629710)
08-19-2011 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
08-19-2011 11:21 AM


Re: my 2 cents
I want the kids to make up their own mind no matter what I say. But to believe for one second that they are incapable of being brain washed is what I consider to be irresponsible. It happened to me, and the only way I can know if they have the knowledge they need to make informed choices is if I give it to them.
The backup plan is currently for them to go into an environment where they will only likely get the knowledge they need by accident. The people I am talking about absolutly believe it should be a choice for children but only one choice is truly acceptable.
These are good people who in all other aspects I have the utmost trust. But they certainly are not going to engage in teaching nothing and letting the child "decide" for themselves.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 08-19-2011 11:21 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 08-21-2011 9:49 AM Jazzns has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 27 of 29 (630076)
08-22-2011 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
08-21-2011 9:49 AM


Re: my 2 cents
I am not sure I fully understand your question.
My main concern for my children is that they have the opportunity to avoid pain that is avoidable through knowledge. This is especially true for pain that I experienced during my development.
I avoided the pain of poverty that my parents experienced by getting an education. I hope to pass that on to them.
For me, religion was unnecessarily painful and even if they don't end up in the same place as I do regarding faith, I believe they are entitled to the knowledge I have aquired. This is knowledge that the religious in my family does not have and does not want to have.
Regardless if you call it brainwashing or not, I know that in the case of my absence, only one side of the story will be told to my kids. "Teach the controversy" is not a virtue when it comes to salvation for those who would be there in my stead. So I am taking the time that I know I do have now to write to them anything that I would want to say if they were 18 and going off to college.
Obviously, I intend to be there along the way before that, not dumping them a bunch of crusty letters addressed to some personality that I never met. But as a stopgap, I hope they would serve well. Writing has also allowed me to organize my ideas better for myself.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 08-21-2011 9:49 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 28 of 29 (630079)
08-22-2011 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
08-19-2011 11:26 AM


I don't think your plan was to tell your family what stupid sheep they were, and how you're so much better and smarter than they are because you've left first-century superstitions in the dumpster where they belong - was it?
No. I get where your coming from. But what this thread has helped me think about so far are choices such as setting up a time to talk about it directly versus waiting for it to be brought up. That difference might actually matter when it comes to as least softening the fallout or at the very least making it less uncomfortable for me. For example, I don't think I would want it to be brought up over Christmas dinner in front of my entire family.
I am more curious about your story though. What made you decide to do it? Why did you have your aunt there? How has it been since then? I understand if those are too personal.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 08-19-2011 11:26 AM crashfrog has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3911 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 29 of 29 (630080)
08-22-2011 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Hyroglyphx
08-21-2011 3:26 PM


Hey Hyro,
I am considering that. My biggest concerns are simply that the timing may be really bad in which case I might have to lie to spare the circumstances. Also, in the case of my kids, I might not be the one to break the news.
If I bring it up, I get to decide when and I know it will be from me.
Aren't you also a recent de-convert? If you are, do you mind me asking what your circumstances are regarding how you broke it to your family if you did?

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-21-2011 3:26 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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