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Author Topic:   Do Christians Worship Different Gods?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 7 of 286 (629707)
08-19-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-18-2011 11:25 PM


1/ Am I as a Christian worshiping a different God than the God as worshipped by a fundamentalist Christian?
Well, that depends on what the defining characteristics of God are. If (for example) we define God as the creator of the universe (something that you presumably believe) then you and the fundies, and indeed Jews and Muslims, are thinking of the same person, you just have different opinions of him.
By analogy, if one person responds to this post under the impression that I'm a moron, and another under the impression that I'm a genius, they are nonetheless replying to the same person, having the defining characteristic of posting on this board under the name "Dr Adequate". They just have different opinions about this entity.
Of course, there is the question of whether you do have the same definition of God. Fundies often talk as though they think the definition is: "The being literally described by the Bible". But do they really think that? Suppose one of them found himself before the heavenly throne and a Being perfectly wise, just, powerful, et cetera, and he says: "Jolly well done for having faith in Jesus, but I gotta tell you, Genesis was actually a metaphor rather than a science textbook" --- would our fundie then exclaim: "Damnit, the atheists were right all along, there is no God"? I think not.
But arguably most of them haven't thought it through like that, thinking things through not being among their predominant traits, poor things. Their overt definition may well be different from the one that they would, if push came to shove, actually use. This confuses the issue.

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 Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-18-2011 11:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 08-19-2011 12:00 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 16 of 286 (629756)
08-19-2011 7:03 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by GDR
08-19-2011 12:00 PM


I agree but as I stated in the OP I was going to go along with Straggler and call it worshipping a different god.
Well, it seems to me that this is an attitude that would sit more easily with someone who thinks that gods don't exist. In that case the question of classifying gods becomes an anthropological one, and a god who created the world in six days and is a staunch Republican is different from one who didn't and isn't, just as one might say that Chinese dragons are different from European dragons.
But if there really were such things as dragons, and which could be shown to be the origin of both sets of myths, then it would make more sense to say that the Chinese and Europeans had different ideas about the same thing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by GDR, posted 08-19-2011 12:00 PM GDR has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 84 of 286 (631336)
08-31-2011 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by IamJoseph
08-31-2011 6:28 AM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
More remarkable is how the world accepts this notorious situation with silence.
Yeah, why is it that no-one even discusses the whole Israel/Palestine question? 'Tis a mystery.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 86 of 286 (631342)
08-31-2011 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by iano
08-31-2011 5:13 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
So, let's see if I've got this right. If I attempt to commit some abominable crime, and I succeed, then I was doing God's will?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 5:13 PM iano has replied

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 Message 95 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 7:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 89 of 286 (631351)
08-31-2011 6:44 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by iano
08-31-2011 6:21 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
That would be an odd position for someone to take - that God should make promises and not keep them!
I'd like to add my puzzlement to Panda's. Apparently you can believe in a god who can sanction actual genocide but who won't break a promise 'cos that would be bad.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 6:21 PM iano has replied

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 Message 94 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 7:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 98 of 286 (631375)
08-31-2011 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by iano
08-31-2011 7:46 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
The problem, iano, is that since committing genocide is commonly thought to be worse than breaking a promise, it is hard to feel certain that someone who did the former would cavil at the latter.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 99 of 286 (631376)
08-31-2011 8:01 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by iano
08-31-2011 7:48 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Is there a particular reason why you don't supply any context?
The context is that I was replying to your post.
Is there any particular reason why you won't answer my question? It's one of those yes-or-no dealies, it's quite simple.
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 Message 102 by iano, posted 08-31-2011 8:07 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 106 of 286 (631389)
08-31-2011 8:23 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by iano
08-31-2011 8:07 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
No then.
How do you know. You say that genocide is "a way God used to achieve his ends."
So if I commit genocide, how can you be sure that that isn't a way God is using to achieve his ends?
Canst thou draw out leviathan with an hook? or his tongue with a cord which thou lettest down?
Canst thou put an hook into his nose? or bore his jaw through with a thorn?
Will he make many supplications unto thee? will he speak soft words unto thee?
Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant for ever?
Wilt thou play with him as with a bird? or wilt thou bind him for thy maidens?
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AdminPD
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 Message 125 by iano, posted 09-01-2011 6:48 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 107 of 286 (631390)
08-31-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by iano
08-31-2011 8:03 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
The problem, Dr. A. is that genocide is commonly thought to be a crime, wrong, unrighteous, unjust.
Yup.
Are you a complete moral vacuum?
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AdminPD
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 143 of 286 (631870)
09-03-2011 11:46 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by iano
09-01-2011 6:48 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
I don't know. Bear in mind that the answer "No then" was an answer to your complete question:
Well then, it should have been "I don't know" in the first place.
But when I asked my question, it was because you, when asked if various acts of genocide were in a good cause, replied: "Whether they were or weren't isn't the issue. That God permitted them to occur is".
Well then, if I successfully commit a crime, then God permitted it to occur. Apparently whether I was behaving justly or unjustly in so doing isn't the issue.
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 187 of 286 (632751)
09-09-2011 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
09-02-2011 2:14 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
I don't think you're arguing because you feel the Midianites were hard done by. I think you're arguing because you would object to God killing you on account of your sin [...] Can I suggest that the root of your objection lies in your not feeling that your sin warrants death at God's own pleasure?
And yet I believe you'll find that Jazzns objects to genocide whether it is attributed to Stalin, to Hitler, or to your imaginary friend. We do not need some special psychological explanation for why Jazzns objects to the particular genocides that you so blandly lay at the door of your god, because Jazzns always objects to genocide.
If anyone requires explanation, it is the man who objects to genocide when it's committed by Stalin or Hitler but who excuses it when he thinks it's the whim of the invisible wizard of whom he's a self-confessed fanboy.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 193 of 286 (633051)
09-12-2011 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Buzsaw
09-09-2011 8:45 PM


Re: Understanding Different Dispensations
No. What I am saying is that God sanctioned genocide on pagan cultures to cleanse a tiny portion of land ...
Apparently gently pushing them out of the way was beyond his powers. After all, he's only omnipotent. Instead he had to delegate the task of removing them to the people who committed genocide by non-supernatural means such as hacking them to pieces and then wrote a book claiming that this was what a supposedly loving and omnipotent God wanted.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 230 of 286 (634003)
09-18-2011 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by GDR
09-17-2011 5:22 PM


Re: Slavery revisionism?
I just meant that the Jewish people had a long history of themselves being enslaved and as a result wouldn't have been well disposed to it, which is quite different than the Roman experience obviously.
And the Romans, having groaned under the Etruscan heel, would presumably have been devout anti-Imperialists.
People don't think like that. They think that their nation is special (the Jews are downright notorious for thinking that their nation is special). This is why the British proudly sang "Britons never never never shall be slaves" while forming the linchpin of the slave trade and subjugating every nation they could get their hands on. Just because they were keen on other people not doing it to them didn't mean that they didn't want to do it to other people.
In the same way, the Jews might have objected to the way the unclean Gentiles treated God's chosen people while thinking it perfectly OK for God's chosen people to subjugate the lesser breeds without the Law.
Did their experiences of being on the sharp end of the military stick make them devout pacifists? Has that, in fact, happened to any nation ever?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by GDR, posted 09-17-2011 5:22 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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