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Author | Topic: Prophecy vs Free will | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
frako Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
If we have free will then prophecy is impossible because by using free will billions of changes can accrue in a vision of the future because someone decides to take a different choice. And the same goes if prophecies are true then we have no free will we always make our choices the same as the visions of prophecy foresee.
Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand Jesus was a dead jew on a stick nothing more
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AdminPD Inactive Administrator |
Thread copied here from the Prophecy vs Free will thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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If people can predict how someone is going to behave given certain situations, surely a god can also.
When I see your name in the PNT, I can predict that the post will probably contain little substance. I'm not usually disappointed. Does that interfere with your free will? No. You can still choose to write a better OP or you can do what you normally do. Since the majority of the Bible Prophecies are written after the fact, freewill was not obstructed. We may have free will but we are still creatures of habit. It is clear in the OT that mankind is not free from being influenced by God.
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CosmicChimp Member Posts: 311 From: Muenchen Bayern Deutschland Joined: |
If people can predict how someone is going to behave given certain situations, surely a god can also. Is the prediction always accurate? If yes, then where is anyone free to choose?
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2
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I'm afraid that you have managed a worse post than the OP - even the title is a strawman. It is not the act of prediction, but the ability to do so that is the issue (although making such a prediction to one of the people involved does raise related issues)
Firstly, let's make the point that prophecy is supposed to be absolutely reliable. That sets it apart from ordinary predictions of human behaviour. Prophecy, then, requires a degree of fatalism - the prediction must come true no matter what anyone does. This might or might not interfere with concepts of free will, depending on what is predicted and how much it depends on human actions. Any dependence at all would call libertarian free will into question, if absolute reliability were required. The most extreme example I know of the Bible is the prediction attributed to Jesus, that Peter would deny him three times before the cockerel crew. This certainly seems at odds with any idea of libertarian free will, relying on Peter to not work against the prediction and that exactly three people would ask and meet denials in a quite limited timeframe. Even a fully deterministic view of the universe would make it hard to be able to make such a prediction, even for a being capable of modelling all the relevant factors to test what would happen if such a prediction were made. Thus, such a prediction would call even compatibilist views of free will into question, at least with regard to this event.
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frako Member (Idle past 326 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Prediction is not necessarily prophecy and a prediction does not always come true.
Lets say the bible has a prophecy that says purple dawn will walk in front of a bus on august the 20tieth and die. If you do walk in front of a bus and die then that is strong evidence of no free will because you would always make the same choice free will would only be an illusion a belief that you actually can choose what to do, but the choice is always the same as the one predicted. But if you would not walk in front of the bus then that would be evidence to support that there is no such thing as prophecy and that you have the free will to chose what to do all the time. To put it more in context with the bible at the end of times after the good guys have been raptured the rest follows Satan to wage the last battle at Armageddon, do these humans that where left behind the atheists who finally got some evidence that god exists dont have a choice to say no belzebos you go and fight your own battle im staying behind, the just blindly follow the guy in to battle knowing they will loose. Edited by frako, : No reason given.Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand Jesus was a dead jew on a stick nothing more
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Dr Jack Member Posts: 3514 From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch Joined: Member Rating: 8.3 |
Prophecy, then, requires a degree of fatalism - the prediction must come true no matter what anyone does. Or the prediction is of what people actually do.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined:
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quote:Even if it is always correct, a prediction has no impact on one's choices unless of course one knows about the prediction and makes choices to try and change the outcome.
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nwr Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.3
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frako writes:
No, you are getting completely wrong. That's not how prophecy works.Lets say the bible has a prophecy that says purple dawn will walk in front of a bus on august the 20tieth and die. The correct way is to wait until Aug 21. Then, if something happened on the 20th, you look for an obscure biblical verse whose meaning you can distort and misconstrue so as to make it look as if it predicted that event on Aug 20. You then announce that as a biblical prophecy that has been fulfilled.Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Doesn't matter. God can watch human behavior. quote:Where is that rule? There are OT prophecies that didn't come about because the people changed their behavior. See the story of Jonah. IMO, only when God has made it clear that he has interfered with humans can one say that free will was denied.
quote:The story doesn't tell us that Peter tried not to deny and was unable to. It just an accurate prediction assuming that Jesus could see what Peter would do. The story doesn't present any outside influence on Peter. Odds are it wasn't a real prediction anyway.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3478 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:A prophecy that tells of something that is to happen in the future is a prediction. quote:The games we play with imagination. If someone makes such a specific prediction, they are probably making it after the fact. Whether i get hit by a bus or not is not evidence for or against prophecy. It would be evidence concerning the reliability of the prophet though. That's why Jonah got mad when God didn't follow through. Also whether I can change the course of things depends on whether I know the prediction or not and whether I believed it or not. I can refuse to believe it and not change my actions or I can choose to believe it and mind where I walk or drive.
quote:Given that what you just wrote has no basis in the Bible, I doubt if free will is thwarted.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17825 Joined: Member Rating: 2.2 |
quote: Yes, it does matter. If libertarian free will is correct, it should be impossible to perfectly predict human behaviour.
quote: Yes, but that's because contrary to the popular modern view of prophecy as prediction, Biblical prophecies are generally statements of intent from God, and in some traditions at least, God does not know what He will actually do when the time comes. However, this topic is about the popular modern view.
quote: And you miss the point. How could Jesus be sure that Peter would not make the effort or that it would take him three failures to realise what he had done or even that the third question would not come a little too late, after cockcrow? Where did I even suggest any outside influence is mentioned in the story ?
quote: That isn't the point either. The point is that this represents the predictive ability attributed to God. The case where a person is presented with a prediction that he will do something and is motivated to NOT do it is the most problematic for reconciling prophecy and Free Will.
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Bailey Member (Idle past 4390 days) Posts: 574 From: Earth Joined: |
quote:pd writes: Even if it is always correct, a prediction has no impact on one's choices unless of course one knows about the prediction and makes choices to try and change the outcome. Even providing one knew of the prophecy and actively campaigned against it with the result being their efforts amiss, would their freewill have been necessarily impinged? Did they not have the ability to act on their expressed desire? The same could be said to the contrary regarding one's efforts with prophetic success, yet ... As a people we accomplish tremendous and amazing feats, but let's face it - some shits just not ever gone happen no matter how hard you try. So, are failure and success necessarily evidence of the futility of human freewill? Or just evidence of humans One LoveI'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker. If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice' They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself? Think for yourself. Mercy Trumps Judgement,Love Weary
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1524 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
deleted. responded to wrong post
Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1524 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
NWR writes: This. +1
No, you are getting completely wrong. That's not how prophecy works.The correct way is to wait until Aug 21. Then, if something happened on the 20th, you look for an obscure biblical verse whose meaning you can distort and misconstrue so as to make it look as if it predicted that event on Aug 20. You then announce that as a biblical prophecy that has been fulfilled.
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