Prophecy vs Free will

So you are saying the "end of days" may not come if people change their ways.

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Yes, it does matter. If libertarian free will is correct, it should be impossible to perfectly predict human behaviour.

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I still disagree. A prediction doesn't take away one's ability to make choices.This isn't about whether one can perfectly predict it is about whether a prediction negates free will.

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Yes, but that's because contrary to the popular modern view of prophecy as prediction, Biblical prophecies are generally statements of intent from God, and in some traditions at least, God does not know what He will actually do when the time comes. However, this topic is about the popular modern view.

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I don't know that frako made any distinction between ancient and modern. He's bringing in the Bible.

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And you miss the point. How could Jesus be sure that Peter would not make the effort or that it would take him three failures to realise what he had done or even that the third question would not come a little too late, after cockcrow? Where did I even suggest any outside influence is mentioned in the story ?

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It doesn't matter how Jesus knew. The implication in the story is that Jesus could see ahead or God gave Jesus the knowledge of what would happen. I didn't say you mentioned outside influence. I'm making my argument that free will was not impeded.

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So you are saying the "end of days" may not come if people change their ways.

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I said that what you wrote had no basis in the Bible, so you can write the ending any way you want.

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I still disagree. A prediction doesn't take away one's ability to make choices.

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This isn't about whether one can perfectly predict it is about whether a prediction negates free will.

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That may be what you would like it to be about, but I'm thoroughly sick of that ridiculous strawman. It is high time that it was buried and forgotten.

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I don't know that frako made any distinction between ancient and modern. He's bringing in the Bible.

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Oh, please. Why should he be talking about a concept of prophecy that is rarely considered these days, that most people don't know about and which doesn't fit with the OP?

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It doesn't matter how Jesus knew. The implication in the story is that Jesus could see ahead or God gave Jesus the knowledge of what would happen. I didn't say you mentioned outside influence. I'm making my argument that free will was not impeded.

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If the answer involves Peter's free will being impeded - or free will not existing in the first place - then it certainly does matter. And you can't make your argument without dealing with it.

Isnt the way the world will end written down ??all those marks of the beast and stuff like that, will those things happen no matter what or can our free will change it?

Prophecy is fore-knowledge of what will happen. It's fulfillment is one of the most significant evidences of the existence of Jehovah, his greatness and power, as depicted in the Biblical record.It is the evidence of the unseen higher intelligence existing in the universe, both good and evil. The existence of evil supernatural entities are also evidence by the ability of some psychics, witches et al to perform some of the phenomena which they are involved with.Wake up and smell the coffee, Frako. Get apprised on all of the end time prophecies which have been both fulfilled and emerging into fulfillment.

Can the choices we make with our free will change the outcome so those prophecies do not come true or are they set in stone and free will is a lie.

Maybe not. But a prediction could render those choices moot. Would a situation in which all of your choices are meaningless because the final outcome cannot be changed still allow for free will?My own opinion is that the question of free-will vs. an omniscient Gods' ability to know everything is a silly one. It's on par with asking if God can create a rock so big that he cannot lift it.Perhaps man has free will, but an infinitely powerful God can still know exactly what choices a given man will make if he makes the effort to do so. Once we postulate infinite power and knowledge, we should not be surprised when paradoxes crop up. I think it does matter how Jesus knew. It is possible that Jesus simply knew Peter really well and simply spoke about a likely, although not inevitable outcome.

Can mankind choose to do the opposite of that which has been prophecised?If not the implications for freewill should be obvious.....

I answered your question in my last post. You missed my point that Jehovah has the power and mental capacity of foreknowledge. Go figure. If you exercise your free will, which he allows you to do, he fore-knew that you would do that. You can exercise no free will but that he knew you would do it.Jehovah makes you do nothing He gave Adam the free will to sin. He knew when he gave it to him that that was what he would do. The same goes with us all.When God prophesied to Esau his fate for killing his brother, Abel, Esau complained that it was too harsh. God's answer to him was that if he'd do right, things would go well, but when he told him that, he knew Esau's heart that he was a rebel at heart.

Biblically speaking I dont think it does. It is my belief that even at this point, Satan could still repent of his course and actions, but his hatred, pride and revenge is so intense, that it has blinded to to not only his actions, but the fact that he actually believes God will not follow through with his warnings and propheciesLest we forget he had a relationship with God, probably like that of no other creature. this relationship of love and friendship probably lasted eons, in our timeI dont think he thought God would actually reject him, so his hatred an anger is unimaginableAt any rate, I believe he could still evenat this point exiercise freewill to circumvent that eventuality. he just wont.Just a thoughtDawn Bertot

Please define what constitutes a prophesy?IMHO, this is the proven outcome of a forecast; the forecast must be proven to made before the event occured - not retrospectively. E.g. the dead sea scrolls, dated at least 200 BCE, does mention a prophesy which became vindicated 2000 years later, despite all attempts to overturn it, occuring when it was least probable.Please identify such a prophesy elsewhere?

If you ask god what you will do at X time, can you do different than what god states?

there is no reason to believe they could not. As In the case of Peter, I believe in that moment could have changed his actions, because in that moment he knew what was right and wrong in the same moment, as is indicated by his anger and denialIt would be silly to assume, he did not know the right thing to do.One could contrast the two occasions of Nenivah and Peter. In one instance freewill circumvented the prophecy, in another it did notWe already know our fate if we do not repent presently, you can change the outcome of prophecy for yourself. Prophecy isnt always written in stone, freewill seems to have precendence in some instances

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Lest we forget he had a relationship with God, probably like that of no other creature. this relationship of love and friendship probably lasted eons, in our time

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This refers to the factor of temptation, alluded to in the metaphorical story of the snake in the Adam and Eve story. There is no actual satan - this contradicts a host of other advocations and laws and showcases only paganism against true monotheism. There are no head bashing deities battling for supremecy nor angels with harps. Laws and commands are balanced against the factor of temptation - else they have no merit. Adam and Eve were magnified by temptation to a threshold greater than their previous stations; so was Abraham.