Prophecy vs Free will

In the first place, that's not the way God communicates with his people in this dispensation. We do not have an audible conversation with God. We pray to him, in the name of Jesus, mediator between God and men and he acts either pro or con to out request, depending on if we meet the criteria for receiving answers to prayer.In the second place, if that were possible, in his fore-knowledge, he would know all that we will ask and what he will do pertaining to our request.You just can't get around the fore-knowledge of God----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You are avoiding the question. It does not matter how god answers a question, but can he? Of course. You're not answering the question.In the Bible, there are many instances of prophecy where it is stated X will occur at a certain time by a certain individual or individuals.Is it possible that a prophecy be given by god that I will do a certain act in the future? Yes or no?Can I do differently that what was predicted?

I know its tempting for you to move to the accuracy of this or that, but this is a discussion on the correlation of what the Bible (old and New) and maybe other sources, have to say on freewill and prophecyIf the stories are to be understood as true, how does one affect the other, do they cancel eachother out, etc.it is interesting how you would know accurately what excally is happening in heavenly places. can I go on the next trip? Maybe you could simplfy what you are saying in this quote How exacally did this happenDawn Bertot

There are times when Jehovah pronounced something bad to happen to a person or nation, but after the person or nation repented, he lifted the judgment. However, he foreknew that there would be repentance when he made the pronouncement.The city of Nineveh, in the book of Jonah, is an example of this.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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I know its tempting for you to move to the accuracy of this or that, but this is a discussion on the correlation of what the Bible (old and New) and maybe other sources, have to say on freewill and prophecy

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If the stories are to be understood as true, how does one affect the other, do they cancel each other out, etc.

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Prophesy, if of a credible true source, never negates free will - both are from the one source. Thus I asked what defines prophesy and how this is tested; if the prophesy is not a vindicated true prophesy, why bother?

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it is interesting how you would know accurately what excally is happening in heavenly places. can I go on the next trip?

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This must be directed on those claiming there is a devil/satan. Since this was never proven it is legitimate to dispute it.

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Adam and Eve were magnified by temptation to a threshold greater than their previous stations; so was Abraham.

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Maybe you could simplfy what you are saying in this quote How exacally did this happen

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Ok. I referred to how one comes out of a test, and that even one who fails the test is still greater than one never tested. It appears to be the only means of elevation.

But can Harry Potter (being the chosen one) simply walk into Mordor? Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Again IMJ, its a philosophical inquiry, assuming initially and for all intents and purposes the prophecy is TRUE. Its not a question of whether a specific prophecy is true, but what would be the consequences on freewillIn this instance, the definition of what constitues a prophecy and how is it tested is waviedHe is bothering because it is a valid philosophical inquirySo since angels demons and the such like do not exist in your view can we assume youclaim the same for prophesy. Not real, not to be worried about? Your disputing something that is being taken for granted for the sake of argument? Your a hard man IMJ.Incidentially you directly indicated that you knew there were no such things as demons, angels and conflicts in heavenly places. From a Biblical perspective however this clearly not trueThat being the case how can absolute control and authority not constitue a violation or interference of freewill? Elevation of what and elevation by who? How does this apply to whether it contradics or circumvents freewill?Where and when would there ever be an example of someone never being tested. Im not sure I see the correlation between the two, since one seems like a vitual impossibilityDawn BertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

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Again IMJ, its a philosophical inquiry, assuming initially and for all intents and purposes the prophecy is TRUE. Its not a question of whether a specific prophecy is true, but what would be the consequences on freewill

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There is no freewill. We have limited control of anything: 99.9% of all actions are involuntary [breething; etc]; the 1% applying to moral/ethical decisions only [to steal or not to steal]. Freedom is lawlessness; Liberty is law based. If the prophesy of a Jew in Judea boasting his people and nation will be destroyed, and his followers have a passion of it - it is quite dispicable and perverse. However I don't believe this happened - its a bogus Roman made story which Europe should have questioned, then dumped in a green bag. 'ALL' - bar none, of the ancestors of today's Christians were enforced into their beliefs, and questioning it became a bad career move in medevial Europe.

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So since angels demons and the such like do not exist in your view can we assume you claim the same for prophesy. Not real, not to be worried about?

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These are spiritual forces only and not physical entities of any consequence accept for delivering a message. Today, the spiritual mode has been taken away and science given in its stead; we do not need both. We have no proof of anything spiritual the past 2000 years; the only prophesy occuring relates to the Hebrew bible.

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Incidentially you directly indicated that you knew there were no such things as demons, angels and conflicts in heavenly places. From a Biblical perspective however this clearly not true

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Depends what you term as biblical. Revelation denotes something new. We cannot prove the FX miracles in the Hebrew bible, however we have hard copy magestic laws from that source as apposed to replacement theologies wholly rested on belief - and no laws for humanity. A critical difference.

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That being the case how can absolute control and authority not constitue a violation or interference of freewill?

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If the law [authority] is applicable equally to all, and also clearly just - it neutralizes the issue of interfearence. Here, the authorities themselves are also under the same law. We cannot say, NOT TO STEAL is an intrusion; we can say a self preserving law enforced on others is an intrusion: e.g. born of the devil thus you are bad. Was not Rome the devil which had blood dripping from its sword - what devil nonesense is that applied to those who challenged Rome alone - and won?

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Ok. I referred to how one comes out of a test, and that even one who fails the test is still greater than one never tested. It appears to be the only means of elevation.

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Elevation of what and elevation by who? How does this apply to whether it contradics or circumvents freewill?

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What will one do with freewill where there is no means to test their validity? The entire universe is made of a positive/negative duality, which pervades everything, both inanimate and life constructs. There is no elevation where there is no opposing force; there is no ONE in the universe. The one tested is greater than one never tested:THE MOST RIGHTIOUS CANNOT STAND WHERE A REPENTANT SINNER STANDS. Thus an elevation can only apply here.

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Where and when would there ever be an example of someone never being tested.

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You affirm the point. We are all tested by forces, hopefully for some underlying reason. There has not been a Messiah because we do not know the purpose of creation - this is the primal reason for a Messiah. We are in freefall,not knowing our purpose here and why. This says the physical realm is superior to any spiritual one - because spiritual beings are not tested.

Hey Frako,It is theoretically possible to have free will and for someone to have a prophecy regarding your action. Say I were to prophecise that a woman in red will walk past my house tomorrow at 6pm. That woman still has free will and could take any number of routes, or not wear red. However, if she does walk past my place, then my prophecy proves true. A proverbial spanner can be thrown in the works if someone I know talks to the woman. They could say to her, there is a nut job up the road who say that he is certain a woman in red will walk past at 6 tonight. She can use her free will and alter her route or change clothes. or, she could really fuck with me and do exactly what the prophecy says. Would it prove my prophecy true if the woman who had no intention of walking past my house did so in order to make me think my prophecy was true? If she told me later that she only did it to fuck with me, could I still say that my prophecy was proven true regardless of the reasons?What I a getting at is that if the subject of the prophecy is unaware of the prophecy or is something that has no free will (eg an avalanche) then their free will or lack of it will not affect the prophecy. If they know about the prophecy, then they could use their free will (if they had any) to alter their actions to avoid fulfilling the prophecy or they could use their free will to fulfill the prophecy even if they have to alter their plans in order to do it.A prophecy can be made regardless of free will if it is being made regarding something that is unaware of the prophecy.I am not 100% sure if I have stated this in a way that is understandable to anyone but me. If you dont get it, I would say that it is my fault. Let me know and I will try again.I noticed that Dawn Bertot and IamJospeh are currently debating each other on this thread. This should be interesting.

In your example above, god made a prediction that something bad would occur to a nation due to their actions. Either because logically he saw the road they were going down and/or because he knew he would be the one to punish them.Imagine a parent telling his kids if their rooms are not clean by a certain time they're going to be punished. Kids clean their rooms, punishment averted.Thats not prophecy. We are discussing prophecy, as in set in stone.So my initial example remains. God makes a prophecy that you will do X at a certain time. You are aware of this prophecy.Can you do differently?

Too many folk educated in the classic tradition vehemently spout and defend the stock position that foreknowledge cannot exist alongside freewill (which is all this thread is about anyway). I used to be one of those people.Then I realized that pitting foreknowledge and freewill against eachother was unnecessary. Neither one precludes the other; never has and never will. As PD said, we can predict what other people will do, and when those predictions come to pass, we never declare an absence of freewill. Why can God not do the same? Why can a prophet not do the same?God's foreknowledge breaks down to being nothing more than the foreknowledge of any given humanHe considers current conditions and formulates hypotheses regarding future events which are then tested for accuracy when the future event occurs or should have occurred. In this way, His predictions can never be accurateor inaccurateat the time that they are made. Their accuracy is only determined once the events they are meant to predict come (or don't come) to pass.Thus, at t₁, God's predictions are neither right nor wrong, and so the future is not bound to happen as God has predicted it, and free will remains.Jon

this is, as I am sure are aware, an assertion, it needs to be demonstrated. When in fact all the evidence indicates, that in any instance I can choose the information I choose to accept or rejectChoices dont always have to be immediate or life threating as your quote implies. There are very time consuming and well thought out CHOICES. Outside influences are only part of the scenerio, with freewill in the lead Point for another thread This seems to be contradictory. If there is only duality and no opposing force, how can the one tested be greater than anything, especially one never tested?How can there be any greater at all, arent you just verbosely advocating subjectiveness nonesense I think in this instance Frako was implying the law or prophecy of God, as beign undestood as absolute. He did not directly state this in his OP, and if I am wrong he can correct meIs your intimation that if god exists and he is the standard of absolute morailty, his law would be an intrusion? If I am missing what you are saying, let me know You seem to talk out both sides of your mouth. One moment there is the cold physical universe, with nutrality, then you imply there may be "some underlying reason"being tested by natural forces is really no test at all is it, atleast from a moral perspectiveThere are no morals to constitue it as a test to begin with, correct?Maybe part of the problem is that you bounce back and forth and use morality as it suits you current argumentHere is what I mean. You said Then you stated: If we do not know the purpose of creation, and the purpose of a messiah is to direct us to morality, why would you think the laws of the Old Testament, would serve us any better in that connectionWhy are they somehow majestic? Its almost as if you wish them to be spiritual without stating it. Why are these laws not self-preserving? because you like them?You seem to hold them in high regard, but then with the same breath claim all is relative, because we really know nothingSeems a bit contradictory or fallaciousDawn bertotEdited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Fixed quote box.

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These are spiritual forces only and not physical entities of any consequence accept for delivering a message. Today, the spiritual mode has been taken away and science given in its stead; we do not need both. We have no proof of anything spiritual the past 2000 years; the only prophesy occuring relates to the Hebrew bible.

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Point for another thread

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Either all the claims of spiritual stuff was false or that it has been replaced by science today and irrelevent; I select the latter because humanity could not survive without both. Would anyone today accept someone saying they know someone who overheard someone rose from the dead - why not - or why did some do then - how did a Norwegian come to accept a fiery preacher telling of what happened long ago in another place - w/o a shred of proof till today?

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This seems to be contradictory. If there is only duality and no opposing force, how can the one tested be greater than anything, especially one never tested?

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An opposing interaction can only occur in a duality. It takes two to tango applies.

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I think in this instance Frako was implying the law or prophecy of God, as beign undestood as absolute. He did not directly state this in his OP, and if I am wrong he can correct me

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If no absolute, no belief; it contradicts any claim to a Creator. THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS is an absolute [accepted by humanity]; TURN THE OTHER CHEECK is not. The dif is the Hebrew evdences itself in reality as opposed solely on belief - its for this here physical realm! However, the factor of forgiveness, mercy, longsuffering, loving kindness [none of which are Gospel but Hebrew] does neutralize any semblance of negating free will. When delved further, we find the negative absolutes are in the Gospel and Quran, obviously born in suspicious undertakings, thinking Israel is dead and free for the taking: we do not see Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc saying some are born of the devil and/or ape; we do see that those who made those absolutes have perpetrated the most devilish and apish deeds.

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Is your intimation that if god exists and he is the standard of absolute morailty, his law would be an intrusion? If I am missing what you are saying, let me know

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What I have percieved is that there is a critical difference when the Hebrew bible describes events in ancient humanity's history - and what 'laws' must apply. Many confuse these factors. God is not agreeing or accepting bad stuff that happened but accurately describing them as at 4000 years ago; evidential by examining a timeline what other nations did at that time. The Hebrew laws are magestic - none have been able to better them to date or negate anything therein, despite this being an obsessive quest.

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You seem to talk out both sides of your mouth. One moment there is the cold physical universe, with nutrality, then you imply there may be "some underlying reason"

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In a sense the uni is perfect. It has laws whch may not always appear acceptable, such as innocent people being killed by tsunamies and plane crashes [not fair!], but it is precisely those random factors which give any meaning to a potential reason applying, to the extent we would see the universe as artificial, contrived and in contradiction of reality with no cost factor applying. This is the highest arena possible; if there are angels with harps somewhere, they would be aghast at our situation, bowing down to us in awe how we survive in such a zone of inevitable death at any time with no warning. In turn we should laugh at those spiritual entities, challenging them to put down their harps and prevail here! In a sense, humanity and other life forms are the real gladiators in the ultimate arena. I cannot imagine another reason applying - everything else seems utterly full of merciless indifference with no reason applying: a contradiction of a universe obviously displaying wisdom in its contruction every place we look. Random cannot happen randomly: try to sing out of tune deliberately!? Random has to be intentionally constructed to factor in. Think about it - one can make a car - but how many can make one which includes unfathomable random factors?

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being tested by natural forces is really no test at all is it, atleast from a moral perspective

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The natural forces become another test. It is not just your fellow man who tests you - its also the wind, the temperatures and one's own mind. Its sensaround. Random was always present, while the complex universe also prevails - a contradiction!

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There are no morals to constitue it as a test to begin with, correct?

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Once there were no laws in the universe. Moral laws require people and immoral forces. Once the uni was formless and void and nothing but am unformed void prevailed - everything was one big mush; read, no science, no laws of gravity, thus no stars and life was seen [this is V2 of Genesis]. The advent of science and laws emerged in V3, namely the formless was turned to form [read, laws emerged]. One can see the greatest depth in Genesis now, tapping state of art science today in what appears a very deceptively simple text explaining the hediest premises: where/when/how did laws come from? It begs the question did they always exist - how so if the uni is finite? I find such depictions in Genesis of the most ultimate issues facing humanity being subjected to opposing forces like other belief systems and atheism - all are created, factored in forces which act as a balancing act for elevation. Yes Genesis is humanity's most mysterious doument: check every forum debate you like - they are discussing nothing else than what Genesis is saying, affirming and negating it and making normal folk into fanatics.

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Maybe part of the problem is that you bounce back and forth and use morality as it suits you current argument

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Here is what I mean. You said

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There has not been a Messiah because we do not know the purpose of creation - this is the primal reason for a Messiah

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Then you stated:

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We cannot prove the FX miracles in the Hebrew bible, however we have hard copy magestic laws from that source as apposed to replacement theologies wholly rested on belief - and no laws for humanity. A critical difference.

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If we do not know the purpose of creation, and the purpose of a messiah is to direct us to morality, why would you think the laws of the Old Testament, would serve us any better in that connection

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The Hebrew bible [The NT is old - superceded with the super new Quran, right!?]. OT is a false, condescending and negating premise based on covert heritage genocide and robbery, which has failed to fulfill away the Hebrew bible - the truth behind antisemitism. Bite that hard, disdained silver bullet. If the NT folk observed the Hebrew moral laws, its followers would not have attained the honor of being humanity's greatest murderers of innocent people throughout history [a fact, not an opinion]. Walk humbly with your God applies.The NT is a lawless document - it never gave humanity a single law. Love, which the NT antithetized [as does the Quran antithetize 'peace'], is conditional and subject to two transcending factors seen in the 10 Commandments: respect [4th C], which commands respect instead of love as the merit applying and the far more difficult to attain; and the factor of honesty [3rd C]. What good is love without respect and honesty? Is it still love if someone says they love you and do the oppositte when you turn your face? The NT has no legitimate claim to the factor of love, which it shouts about all over the place in generic, abstract mode - with horrific conditions in the fine print. The Hebrew says love is conditional and must be proven and merited. Else beware - it is not what is advertised in the headings! Atheism is cowardly - attacking the Hebrew bible when it is least attackable, remaining silent of the most attackable - because the latter is a bad career move, while the former gets you 5 minutes of stardom and a tap on the shoulder.

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Why are they somehow majestic? Its almost as if you wish them to be spiritual without stating it. Why are these laws not self-preserving? because you like them?

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I check mated someone in another such thread. The inculcation of negating the Hebrew laws as bad is based on horrific politics, not represented by reality and the reverse is the case. The world turns on the Herew laws exclusively, and no I am not a fanatic: I long to find other good laws and premises - try me! No Hebrew laws - no morality, ethicality, judiciary, etc, etc. There is no such thing as Christian or Islamic law; a law is not what one religion's followers follow - that is a ritual; a law is that which crashes all borders and is accepted even in an enemies' institutions [think, Hebrew laws], to the extent those who do not follow those laws are regarded outside the law. 'NAMES' are not laws. Christianity and Islam have been given all the lands, resources and substance - but no 'LAWS' - yet they throw away all their gifts and focus only on a tiny, miniscule people and land. Why so -will the king kongs beat their chests boasting how they prevailed a mosquito - and what happens when they must now face each other? It begs the Q who are the real vctims here.

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You seem to hold them in high regard, but then with the same breath claim all is relative, because we really know nothing

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Seems a bit contradictory or fallacious

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No sir. The manifest situation is that we know nothing about origins of anything whatsoever [read, Genesis is right!]. The first alphabet is barred; Genesis begins with the second alphabet - it is shaped like a square with only the GO FORTH [look not behind] forward facet open. All else is open to us and emerging only in its exacting due time. This is vindicated today: we know everything about pineapples - except the origins of a pineapple. It should suffice us, but given the chance we will drop all the gifts and reach only for the unknown: this is what the Adam and Eve story metaphorically symbolizes: damn all the rest - go for the forbidden. It appears a great masterminded strategy to keep us all sucked in and searching for we don't know what. Brilliant, no?Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Christianity says the Messiah came, went away and will come again. Judaism says 'nix' - no Messiah came but will one day.The above scenario says if a Messiah does come forth, he can greet us in one of two ways:"HELLO! HOW NICE TO MEET YOU AGAIN!" - This would mean all Jews must apologise to Christians. Agreed.Or!"HELLO! HOW NICE TO MEET YOU!" - This would mean all Christians must apologise to the Jews.Obviously, none today are disbelievers - all would kill and give their lives for their doctrines. But why not leave it at that - unresolved and wait and see? Why kill each other off now? - how will that make us see the light?IMHO, the Hebrew wins - a mysterious force has made Christianity afflicted with Islam as the response, resulting in two plaintiffs in mutually exclusive mode of their attacks on the Hebrew bible. One says the red car which belonged to another is now theirs; the other says the green truck which was corrupted by others is now theirs. I say, come, let us reason together - there is no red car or green truck anywhere to be found! A Messiah may not necessarily say what you like to hear - he/she may even ask some un-anticipated questions not attended in the Gospels or Quran. He may well say BORN OF SIN applies if your parents remained silent of the Balfour's crruption, for example. Or that a non-virtual Judas is one who threw the Jews under the bus for 30 barrels of oil. He may even ask - EGAD! - which is the homeland of the Jews? We all have to practice our answers to bad questions by a Messiah. Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

Hello IamJoseph,nice to see you are a creature of such predictable habit.It must be hard to lie to yourself so effectively. I have. And I have asked you on a number of occasions to start a thread regarding your claims so that they can be properly refuted once and for all. I have even sent you a couple of PMs with this request.here is one of them - I have not read any supporting evidence of any of your claims as yet. You have produced some of the laws and in doing ao have actually helped prove my point. i doubt you have realised this though. I assume by 'check mated' you mean you have made a convincing irrefutable argument and have come out victorious. This also has not happenned. In the lst thread where you started to vomit this bullshit out, i finished with this post - You have not started you won thread therefore I stand by the statements that your arguements are worthless and that you are an intellectual coward. Edited by AdminPD, : Warning