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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 46 of 168 (629917)
08-21-2011 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by Butterflytyrant
08-21-2011 5:47 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.
You should start a thread listing laws in the Gospels and/or Quran the world's institutions have accepted, rather than questioning me - I did this because you made posts ridiculing the Hebrew laws. Yes, check mate did apply seeing how there was no retraction and only continueing impudence. I listed about 50 magestic laws the world has accepted covering all faculties and over 20 animal rights laws exclusive to the Hebrew bible - all with reference numbers attached anyone can check up on.
Its your turn now - start with one?
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 5:47 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 8:46 AM IamJoseph has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 47 of 168 (629933)
08-21-2011 8:46 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by IamJoseph
08-21-2011 6:04 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
I am Joseph,
THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS.
I am an athiest. I do not recognise your commandments. Even when you shout them.
You should start a thread listing laws in the Gospels and/or Quran the world's institutions have accepted, rather than questioning me
Why the fuck would I start that thread? Are you aware that laws have come from sources other than the three monothesistic faiths?
I did this because you made posts ridiculing the Hebrew laws.
I did not riducule the Hebrew laws. I ridiculed your claims. You make various unsubstantiated claims regarding the Hebrew laws. Here is an example -
'ALL' laws the world follows come exclusively from the 613 hebrew laws - to the extent any party which does not follow those laws is deemed outside of the law. All animal rights laws come from here, as does laws if liberty, inlienable human rights, all judciary laws, environmental laws, worker's right instead of slaves, etc. The world does not follow a single law from any other sector: name one?
You make these claims in many, many threads. You have never made them in any thread where laws were actually being discussed.
Yes, check mate did apply seeing how there was no retraction and only continueing impudence.
You can imagine any victory conditions you like IamJospeh, as long as you dont mind deluding yourself. You have not clearly put your statements in a thread to be to be scrutinised. How can you yell victory when you are only playing with yourself? You will continue to get impudence until you put your own claims up to the test. Start a thread.
I listed about 50 magestic laws the world has accepted covering all faculties and over 20 animal rights laws exclusive to the Hebrew bible
You did list a large number of Jewish Laws. However, a cursory glance down the list shows laws that the world has not accepted.
243. That a transgressor shall not testify (Ex. 23:1)
247. Not to decide a case on the evidence of a single witness (Deut. 19:15)
The transgressor is allowed to testify. It is a protected right for them to do so in most western nations. It is also fine to decide a case with only a single witness. Some trials have no actual winesses as all. Sometimes you make it too easy to refute your claims.
As to the animal rights laws. The only ones that are exclusively Hebrew are the ones about animal sacrifice and Kosher slaughter. Your point that I was refuting was not that there were animals rights laws in the Mitsvah, I was saying that they were not all laws accepted by the world today You putting forward some that are does not change the fact that some are not. I easily refute your claims by providing a single animal rights law from the Mitsvah that is not followed by all, or even the majority of governments in the world. Kosher killing is the easiest example. It is practiced in many countries but if often protested against and is not the norm. It is usually restricted to a small minority.
You make statements like this (in threads they do not belong in) -
'ALL' laws the world follows come exclusively from the 613 hebrew laws - to the extent any party which does not follow those laws is deemed outside of the law. All animal rights laws come from here, as does laws if liberty, inlienable human rights, all judciary laws, environmental laws, worker's right instead of slaves, etc. The world does not follow a single law from any other sector: name one?
If you are so sure of your claim, start a thread and see how you go.
I have already tried to start a thread refuting your claims, 7 threads actually, but the mods assumed that they would not go anywhere. They probably will because you are full of shit.
Only you can start the thread. Only you are fully aware of your crazy claims.
Until you start your thread, my previous statements stand.
Your arguements are worthless.
You are an intellectual coward.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 6:04 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 9:23 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 48 of 168 (629935)
08-21-2011 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Butterflytyrant
08-21-2011 8:46 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
I am an athiest. I do not recognise your commandments. Even when you shout them.
Your mistaken. Atheists are also bound by the law.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 8:46 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 9:46 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 50 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 10:39 AM IamJoseph has replied

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 49 of 168 (629938)
08-21-2011 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by IamJoseph
08-21-2011 9:23 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Your mistaken. Atheists are also bound by the law.
Bound how?
I choose to follow, or not, the laws of my nation and state. I in no way have ever felt bound by them or any religious laws. If I am not breaking some of them it is not because I feel bound by them, it's because it is simply the right way to act. How can I be bound by laws I am not even familiar with.
Lam, this would probably make an interesting discussion. Why don't you want to start a topic on it? Do it in coffee house if nothing else. As you have already listed much of this in the WTC topic it should be easy....just cut and paste and explain why an Atheist would be also bound by these laws or show how these laws were adopted into our modern legal systems.
AbE
I guess if you mean bound as that I will be punished for breaking laws of my nation/state, then yes, I am bound by those laws. In no way am I bound by any religious laws, I have probably broke many biblical laws pertaining to food, could care less...who is going to punish me?
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"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 9:23 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 10:15 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 50 of 168 (629943)
08-21-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by IamJoseph
08-21-2011 9:23 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Commandments are different to laws.
I can work as much as I like on the Sabbath, I can covet my neighbors wife, she is about 80 so I dont, but I could if i were so inclined, I make wrongful use of the lords name on a regular basis and I reject God.
None of this is against the law.
Specific to the false witness commandment you metioned, lying is not illegal. Sometimes it is the right thing to do. My partner is 8 months pregnant at the moment. She asked me today about how she looked in a particular dress. It looked terrible. Some dreses are not designed to sit on an woman who is heavily pregant. Now, from your commandment, I would have to tell her this. There is not way I would do this. It would hurt my wife and she would most likley hurt me soon after.
I told her it looked fine, but i prefer her in another dress that I picked out. So lying was both legal and the right thing to do.
Also, as an athiest, I have no fear of your god punishing me for breaking his rules. That is another reason I do not recognise your commandments.
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Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 9:23 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 7:39 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied
 Message 54 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 9:36 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 51 of 168 (629985)
08-21-2011 7:23 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by IamJoseph
08-20-2011 9:54 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
If no absolute, no belief; it contradicts any claim to a Creator. THOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS is an absolute [accepted by humanity]; TURN THE OTHER CHEECK is not. The dif is the Hebrew evdences itself in reality as opposed solely on belief - its for this here physical realm! However, the factor of forgiveness, mercy, longsuffering, loving kindness [none of which are Gospel but Hebrew] does neutralize any semblance of negating free will.
This is the only semblence in your post that actually relates to the topic of the thread, so I will address it.
Because of you hatred for the NT, it is easy to see you do not even understand they are in perfect agreement in teaching.
"Turn the other cheek", is exact in character to "A soft answer turneth away wrath", which is I believe from the old law or prophets teaching, correct?
Both testaments manifest, (evidence) themself in reality, as I just demonstrated.
Claiming that the principles of the NT have no application to reality is not the same as demonstrating it
Please demonstrate how mercy, love ect, negate freewill
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by IamJoseph, posted 08-20-2011 9:54 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 10:04 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 168 (629989)
08-21-2011 7:39 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Butterflytyrant
08-21-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Specific to the false witness commandment you metioned, lying is not illegal.
False witness means something like perjury and perjury generally is illegal in countries with anything like a judicial system.
IamJ is still way out to lunch, but you are demonstrating why it is a bad idea to wrestle in the mud with a pig. You just get dirty and the pig likes it.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 10:39 AM Butterflytyrant has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 7:54 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 56 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 9:49 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 53 of 168 (629991)
08-21-2011 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
08-21-2011 7:39 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
Hi NN,
False witness means something like perjury
Maybe in a court of law.
The term "false witness' could be construed to mean many things depending on your point of view. I feel it means telling any lie for any reason. Is it illegal to lie, or just lie in court? Is there an agreed upon meaning to the term " False witness" ?
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 7:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 9:39 PM fearandloathing has not replied
 Message 61 by NoNukes, posted 08-21-2011 11:48 PM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 54 of 168 (629994)
08-21-2011 9:36 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Butterflytyrant
08-21-2011 10:39 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
Commandments are different to laws.
No sir. Rituals are different to laws. A law happens with the world's substantial institutions accept and enshrine a Commandment as LAW.
quote:
I can work as much as I like on the Sabbath,
No sir. One day per seven rest with pay is obligatory as a law. An employer as well as an employee has this right and it can be legally enforced. If you can't do it in six you won't do it better in 7; you shall not live by bread alone.
quote:
I can covet my neighbors wife, she is about 80 so I dont, but I could if i were so inclined,
Agreed you can. The point is you can also be convicted with a criminal record and end up behind bars. Its the law.
quote:
I make wrongful use of the lords name on a regular basis and I reject God.
Agreed you can. But if done loudly it can land you in prison for incitement and hateful speech.
quote:
Also, as an athiest, I have no fear of your god punishing me for breaking his rules. That is another reason I do not recognise your commandments.
Ignorance of the law or your non-recognition of the law or being an atheist are not means of escape from the law.
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AdminPD
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 10:39 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-21-2011 11:56 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 55 of 168 (629995)
08-21-2011 9:39 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by fearandloathing
08-21-2011 7:54 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
False witness means something like perjury
Maybe in a court of law.
Depending on the traditions of a country, a law can be adjusted with qualifications, becoming 'derivitives' of the law. Traditions may transcend in certain instances, a premise sanctioned by the law.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 7:54 PM fearandloathing has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 56 of 168 (629996)
08-21-2011 9:49 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by NoNukes
08-21-2011 7:39 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
False witness means something like perjury and perjury generally is illegal in countries with anything like a judicial system.
This extends to refusing to be a witness; a crime:
Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82).
Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48).
That one who possesses evidence shall testify in Court (Lev. 5:1) (affirmative).
Not to testify falsely (Ex. 20:13) (CCN39).
That a witness, who has testified in a capital case, shall not lay down the law in that particular case (Num. 35:30) (negative).
That a transgressor shall not testify (Ex. 23:1) (CCN75).
That the court shall not accept the testimony of a close relative of the defendant in matters of capital punishment (Deut. 24:16) (CCN74).
Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1) (CCN65).
To examine witnesses thoroughly (Deut. 13:15) (affirmative).
Not to decide a case on the evidence of a single witness (Deut. 19:15) (CCN73).
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AdminPD
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This message is a reply to:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 57 of 168 (629997)
08-21-2011 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Dawn Bertot
08-21-2011 7:23 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
This is the only semblence in your post that actually relates to the topic of the thread, so I will address it.
I see 'LAWS' as the primal factor concerning the issue of free will.
quote:
Because of you hatred for the NT, it is easy to see you do not even understand they are in perfect agreement in teaching.
I love christians. Hate is not addressing hateful inculcations passed on as belief: calling others as born of the devil and/or ape is a testing of all Christians and Muslims credibility, its rejection is being respresented to all humanity to consider as an evil premise - aside from its contradiction of the book of laws. Honesty is the first of all moral/ethical laws; obedience to evil is an evil inclination.
AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.
quote:
"Turn the other cheek", is exact in character to "A soft answer turneth away wrath", which is I believe from the old law or prophets teaching, correct?
It's not a law and contradicts the Hebrew bible - don't even try, applies. If one turns the other cheeck to evil deeds it is a crime and in direct contradiction of God's laws. This has been seen throughout European Christianity's history, most recently in W.W.II with the VE VERE NOT AVARE syndrome and the turning of the cheek when the Balfour Declration was corrupted - all Christians remained silent. You cannot guarantee that TURNING THE CHEECK cannot be abused - the reason it is not seen in the Hebrew magestic laws: if a mad dog is chasing you with the limbs of your kin in its jaws - turning the cheeck is a crime!
quote:
Both testaments manifest, (evidence) themself in reality, as I just demonstrated.
Claiming that the principles of the NT have no application to reality is not the same as demonstrating it
Absolutely you have not demonstrated your case. Check your histrical record!
quote:
Please demonstrate how mercy, love ect, negate freewill
Mercy, love, forgiveness and everlasting kindness is not from the NT but the Hebrew bible. Conditions apply.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-21-2011 7:23 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-21-2011 10:44 PM IamJoseph has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 58 of 168 (629999)
08-21-2011 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by fearandloathing
08-21-2011 9:46 AM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
I in no way have ever felt bound by them or any religious laws.
Agreed you are not bound by ritual laws [adherence to names, festivals, dietary laws, etc]; but you are bound to moral/ethical/judiciary commandments which have been accepted as LAW. All such Hebrew laws [non-ritual] are accepted as the LAW - comprehensively and exclusively seen in the Hebrew bible.
Thus far there has been one Hebrew law being debated and in certain states overturned, namely the laws relating to Gays. However this is not a moral/ethical law as much as it is an existential law: if 20% of the human pop goes gay, humanity will not survive after a few generations. It's other problem is that it impacts the laws relating to incest: one cannot dismiss incest if gay laws are passed: both positing mutual acceptence provisions and not hurting others, etc. It will then be a crime if you do not attend the celebration of a birth of your 50 year old male neighbour and his 25 year old biological daughter. Its a hot potato, the point being a choice between 100% disaster ahead or some compromises applied.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by fearandloathing, posted 08-21-2011 9:46 AM fearandloathing has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-22-2011 12:01 AM IamJoseph has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 59 of 168 (630003)
08-21-2011 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by IamJoseph
08-21-2011 10:04 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
I see 'LAWS' as the primal factor concerning the issue of free will.
This is a statement not an argument. if there is an argument in it, please proaduce it
I love christians. Hate is not addressing hateful inculcations passed on as belief: calling others as born of the devil and/or ape is a testing of all Christians and Muslims credibility, its rejection is being respresented to all humanity to consider as an evil premise - aside from its contradiction of the book of laws. Honesty is the first of all moral/ethical laws; obedience to evil is an evil inclination.
your still speaking out both sides of your mouth. One moment you insist there is no absolute, nothing provable, then turn right around and use such terms as, honesty, moral and evil.
IMJ, if there are no absolutes, then you stand in contradiction of accusing christians of morals you do not agree with, because your other tenets concerning morality are for the most part subjective ramblings Which is it IMJ, are there absolutes or not
You have to think things through to thier logical conclusion, before taking positions and throwing around terms and ideas
If one turns the other cheeck to evil deeds it is a crime and in direct contradiction of God's laws.
Turning the other cheek does not mean ignoring evil behavior it simply means deal with it in love, not anger
Paul said "give place to wrath" He did NOT approve of it or ignore it. Gods law says it is wrong long before I am presented with the situation to deal with it
Mercy, love, forgiveness and everlasting kindness is not from the NT but the Hebrew bible. Conditions apply.
Yes from both testaments and the same God. Did you expect God to change his characteristics, simply because delt with people differently?
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AdminPD
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 10:04 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 10:59 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 60 of 168 (630004)
08-21-2011 10:59 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Dawn Bertot
08-21-2011 10:44 PM


Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
quote:
your still speaking out both sides of your mouth. One moment you insist there is no absolute, nothing provable, then turn right around and use such terms as, honesty, moral and evil.
IMJ, if there are no absolutes, then you stand in contradiction of accusing christians of morals you do not agree with, because your other tenets concerning morality are for the most part subjective ramblings Which is it IMJ, are there absolutes or not
Of course there are absolutes, its validity not depending on one's subjectives thoughts, but what is manifest over long periods of time. Absolutes:
THE SUN SHALL RISE TOMORROW WITHOUT ANY ASSISTANCE FROM YOU.
These are not absolutes:
NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
NO GOD W/O MOHAMMED AS HIS PROPHET.
JEWS ARE BORN OF THE DEVIL AND/OR APES.
quote:
Turning the other cheek does not mean ignoring evil behavior it simply means deal with it in love, not anger
Yes I realize this as applying to most Christians today [at least after post-W.W.II and applying mainly outside European inculcated theology] - and still disagree it is a bona fide law. You ignore how that premise has been mis-used throughout European Christian history, causing the murder of millions of innocent folk - precisely because of turning the cheek. Newton's Law applies.
quote:
Yes from both testaments and the same God
As I said, Jews have an obligation to correct Christianity, which accepted and took on board the Hebrew bible as having equal validity of the NT: but all theologies cannot be equally right - they contradict each other. Best I can do is be honest with you:
AN HONEST DISAGREEMENT BEATS A DISHONEST AGREEMENT.
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AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-23-2011 7:03 PM IamJoseph has replied

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