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Author Topic:   Is God evil?
Doctor Witch
Junior Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 27
From: Both Sides
Joined: 08-05-2011


Message 16 of 30 (627999)
08-06-2011 1:37 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Coyote
08-05-2011 10:25 PM


Which statement would you like empirical evidence for?
I would be quite happy to provide empirical evidence for the inadequacy of modern society knowing the difference between good and evil, particularly in its own incompetent actions. It is based on immediate self gratification of a subjective world view rather than long term objective results. Of course, that leads to disasters....

Should I mention the economy as empirical data of the ethical and practical failure of all society?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Coyote, posted 08-05-2011 10:25 PM Coyote has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 1337 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 17 of 30 (628000)
08-06-2011 1:47 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Doctor Witch
08-06-2011 1:37 AM


Re: Which statement would you like empirical evidence for?
How about providing empirical evidence for Lucifer?

Show how Lucifer is more than an old tribal myth.


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Doctor Witch, posted 08-06-2011 1:37 AM Doctor Witch has replied

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Doctor Witch
Junior Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 27
From: Both Sides
Joined: 08-05-2011


Message 18 of 30 (628002)
08-06-2011 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
08-06-2011 1:47 AM


Lucifer - More Than An Old Tribal Myth
The title of this thread is 'Is God evil?'

In that context it is perfectly legitimate to use the name Lucifer as a concept that embodies Judeo-Christian concepts of evil.

I respect the founding law of academia that defines what is science and what is not. This thread is a part of the intangible and immeasureable worlds that science and its requirement for empirical data has no right to interfere in. They are the realms of philosophy, theology and even clinical psychology.

You are obviously a reductionist who has gazed into a crystal ball to discover that science will know everything with the current tools and concepts. That in itself is an amusing anachronism born of irrationality, wishful thinking and subjectivity.

I would be happy with the statement that Lucifer only exists in the mind or in dreams. As such, and on the other side of the Cartesian fence, there is no requirement for empirical evidence and the only possible evidence is of witness reports of which there are many. I shall consider those reports with objective, analytical logic as prescribed.

Under those terms, I must conclude that there is a conceptual archetype that goes under the name Lucifer that has an important influence on many human minds and cannot be discounted. My conclusion is that Lucifer represents blind, uninformed human egoism.

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 19 of 30 (628006)
08-06-2011 4:51 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Doctor Witch
08-06-2011 2:48 AM


Topic Please
Welcome Doctor Witch,

Glad you decided to add to our diversity. We have a wide variety of forums for your debating pleasure.

The title of a thread is not the debate, it just a basic summary. The Opening Post or Message 1 presents the basis of the debate.

The curious thing is that the "God" worshipped by Christians, Jews and Muslims is, according to the Gnostics, pure evil. Isn't it totally amazing that billions of people worship a God that some people believe to be the very quintessence of wickedness? Judging by some of the things that Christians, Jews and Muslims inflict on their fellow human beings (mass murder, torture, inquisition, suicide bombings, massacres, death camps etc), don't the Gnostics have a very good case?

The topic isn't about finding a good name or representation for evil.

As members, we are guests on this board and as guests we are asked to put forth our best behavior.
Please read the Forum Guidelines carefully and understand the wishes of our host. Familiarize yourself with the various functions of EvC by using the Practice Makes Perfect Forum.

Please direct any questions or comments you may have concerning this post to the Report Discussion Problems Here 3.0 thread. Do not respond in this thread.

Again, welcome and fruitful debating.
AdminPD Purple


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Doctor Witch
Junior Member (Idle past 3848 days)
Posts: 27
From: Both Sides
Joined: 08-05-2011


Message 20 of 30 (628115)
08-06-2011 8:53 PM


I too had heard of this early Gnostic belief, basically that God had created the world, realised his mistake and been trying to disown responsibility ever since. On exploring modern Gnosticism I discovered many other versions.

In many ways, the concept of a God that would intervene in individual, mundane affairs for the sake those who pray is a modern concept in Christianity. Old Christianity was built on God Time, not questioning the Divine Mystery of why the world is how it is and even being blissful and thankful for experiencing life. The only rewards that you would receive were in the afterlife.

I guess it was competition with science in the Age of Enlightenment that changed all that. This is really when Christianity seems to have fragmented into being what ever you want it to mean and following society's subjective demands rather than objective theology.

An example was the complaints on the death of JPII for not conforming to societal beliefs about promiscuity and homosexuality, thus blaming him for the spread of AIDS. They wanted God's word and standards to be changed because they did not like what God said. Of course, it did not enter their minds that following the no sex before marriage and no sex outside marriage would have had quite a significant impact on HIV.

This is why the Catholic Church did not want the Bible translated but to remain in the hands of those that were theologically trained. Every part of the Bible must be seen in its overall context rather than taking one bit and leaving another. Single quotations are taken completely out of context and distorted.

This is what we see in the modern world of Christianity. The Vatican actually believes in Evolutionary Theory! It does not intrude into the realm of science. All of the conflict is with those who start up their own little Churches without adequate academic theological training.

The worst case I have heard of this is a female friend whose Christian boyfriend tried to convince her that whilst vaginal sex before marriage was a terrible sin, anal sex was okay according to the Bible.

I have lived in Mexico and there Catholicism is further from Western Catholicism than you would imagine. It has less to do with Western Catholicism than official Chuch of England and other mainstream European derived and controlled Protestant Faiths. They can pray to St Simon, a Guatemalan black magician for curses on theeir enemies. They can pray to St Death, who seems to have roots in African voodoo, then stick needles into the genitals of a doll of their spouse to keep them faithful. There are entire churches dedicated to its worship. And there are supposedly Catholic Churches where they openly perform animal sacrifice.

Christianity is out of control. It bears little or no resemblance to what it was. There were a lot of things right about Christianity but most of them have been lost in many allegedly Christian beliefs. Instead, it has become democratically controlled by the lowest common denominator of society for the sake of societal power so that everybody can believe what they want to believe. Society believes in egoism and many Christians believe that God should be their obedient pet or forgiving servant so long as they go to church on Sunday.

The original Christian concept of God is evil by modern 'Christian' standards of expectation. Perhaps that is why the Book of Revelations says that God is coming for them, and not in a good way. It says that Christians are first on the list for His fireballs.


  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6630
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 21 of 30 (630174)
08-22-2011 8:38 PM


Evil Dick

smbc comics

OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD

Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Edited by AZPaul3, : added source

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


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AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 22 of 30 (630261)
08-23-2011 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by AZPaul3
08-22-2011 8:38 PM


Where's the Discussion?
This is not the humor thread.

You provided nothing to further the discussion concerning the topic and what you did provide is off topic.

Don't do it again.

Thanks
AdminPD


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 Message 21 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2011 8:38 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 23 of 30 (630289)
08-23-2011 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Doctor Witch
08-06-2011 12:58 AM


Re: Myths
Well my dos centavos:

1: Lucifer / evil concept allows for a redeemer and does away with the dichotomy of God being omnipotent and benevolent yet allows evil.

2. the concept of Satan is a ancient Babylonian myth

3. The Garden of Eden story also allows for the down fall of man into original sin, thus re-enforces how Satan can be responsible for corrupting humanity.

4. Biblical text refers to God as the quiet calm after the storm, not the storm itself.

Is God evil? I would say no. The bible has implimented a background of carefully selected stories, but depending on which Judeo Christian God you are refering to, Fire Wrath and Brimstone, Or Kind and good. He is that he is.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 24 of 30 (638740)
10-25-2011 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by ICANT
09-11-2008 11:11 PM


How Do We Know Whats Authoritative?
ICANT writes:

Last counts I had there was over 34,000 religions in the world. There are over 1,280 different denominations of so call christianity in the US.

There can only be one that is 100% correct as they all differ in some points of their belief system.

Why couldn't none of the human ideas be right?
ICANT writes:

I would be totally surprised if more than 4% are doing what God said do the way God said do it.

How can we be sure that God said to do it based on scripture?

Why would only some believe you to be right?


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frako
Member
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 25 of 30 (638755)
10-25-2011 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
10-25-2011 12:24 PM


Re: How Do We Know Whats Authoritative?
Why couldn't none of the human ideas be right?

Cause he does not believe in them and they where not given to us by half/full god born from a virgin impregnated by a magic sperm.

How can we be sure that God said to do it based on scripture?

Because he believes it and belief trumps reason every time.

Why would only some believe you to be right?

Because all the others hate god like Buddhist, or Gandhi, or your tipycal atheist


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

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Bailey
Member (Idle past 3601 days)
Posts: 574
From: Earth
Joined: 08-24-2003


Message 26 of 30 (638809)
10-26-2011 7:36 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
10-25-2011 12:24 PM


Re: How Do We Know Whats Authoritative?
Last counts I had there was over 34,000 religions in the world. There are over 1,280 different denominations of so call christianity in the US.

There can only be one that is 100% correct as they all differ in some points of their belief system.


Why couldn't none of the human ideas be right?

Good point phat, why could even one of them be right? Couldn’t the 35,091st religion be the RealTM authentic one?

Or perhaps the 1,379th catholic/christian tradition? Maybe it was the 17th one, though it's now lost to history?

One Love


I'm not here to mock or condemn what you believe, tho my intentions are no less than to tickle your thinker.
If those in first century CE had known what these words mean ... 'I want and desire mercy, not sacrifice'
They surely would not have murdered the innocent; why trust what I say, when you can learn for yourself?
Think for yourself.

Mercy Trumps Judgement,
Love Weary


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ronychy
Junior Member (Idle past 3503 days)
Posts: 2
From: Chittagong
Joined: 07-15-2012


Message 27 of 30 (668001)
07-15-2012 1:57 PM


Please Don't Comment
You Know God Created Us.He Created Everything's So Some Man Are Evils But Not GOD.

Edited by ronychy, : No reason given.


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Admin
Director
Posts: 12788
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 28 of 30 (668023)
07-16-2012 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by ronychy
07-15-2012 1:57 PM


Re: Please Don't Comment
Hi RonyChy,

I'm unsuspending you because I'm not so sure of the original assessment that you're a signature spammer. We've never had a spammer of any kind include an avatar image, and your IP address is consistent with your location.

However, this *is* a discussion board. Off-topic declarations with subtitles requesting that no one comment are not appreciated. If you keep up in this way you'll be suspended again.

--Percy


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3051 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 29 of 30 (705191)
08-24-2013 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Coyote
08-06-2011 1:47 AM


Re: Which statement would you like empirical evidence for?

How about providing empirical evidence for Lucifer?
Show how Lucifer is more than an old tribal myth.

Empirical evidence is evidence that is tangible to the senses.

Lucifer is perhaps a rose by another name.

These ideas of the seven evil spirits of the Bible, like Lucifer, were all more germane to the observations of Jews and Christians.

But, all seven were somehow observed, universally, by the whole world, over thousands of years, and by every generation of the past.

The empirical evidence for seven spirits behind our behaviors WAS empirically established though out all of recorded history, in that all so persistent, though much maligned discipline called Astrology.

While the Christian movement worked to discredit the Astrology that had grown as a science of psychology/sociology around these empirical observations of seven influences over human behavior, Christian had actually just re-designated these seven as evil, rather than mundane and beneficent outside forces.

That was a wise re-evaluation of what had been the assumption that these archetypes were benign, (now known to us the source of urges, desires, lusts, and such underling motivators as preconscious and dangerously uncontrolled source of impulsive behaviors.)

Freud was the Jew, the catalyst, (messiah), in bringing the secular world's light to the religion of Christianity which had already been at work opposing our impetuous submission to these seven psychic forces, all through the Ages, before we had recognized the power of these forces in our own daily life for what they were.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

1) Id = Lucifer
2) Libido = Satan
3) Ego = Mammon
4) Anima = Devil
5) Self = Beelzebub
6) Superego = False Prophet
7) Harmony = False shepherd

Edited by kofh2u, : No reason given.


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Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(1)
Message 30 of 30 (705198)
08-24-2013 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by kofh2u
08-24-2013 10:41 AM


Re: Which statement would you like empirical evidence for?
You do know that Fruad was unable to support his assertions, don't you?

And Astrology has nothing to do with Psychology (what with it being a science).

Learning is fun!


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


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