The Essence Of Faith & Belief.

As the new moderator of our Faith & Belief Forum, I wanted to open up the question as to what this particular forum is all about.Of course, we do have some basic guidelines already established.

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Is God an objective reality or a subjective concept?

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The question could be further asked: Is God? (Or is She not?)The Faith & Belief Forum differs from the Bible Study Forum in that an atheist is as welcome here as is a believer..of any religion. While participants can bring up the Holy Book, (or a wholly crocked argument, with reasonable support) the Bible is not the final word in this particular forum. Human wisdom and philosophy play a larger role in this forum, which makes it sort of like a coffee house of faith (versus logic). Does anyone have anything to add regarding their own personal philosophy of what faith and belief mean in their own lives and what faith and belief can mean at EvC Forum?Edited by AdminPhat, : spellingEdited by AdminPhat, : best be Phat rather than adminphat

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Is God an objective reality or a subjective concept?

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For realsies? I dunno.
But as far as practical, functional life goes... He's just a subjective concept.
I come to this conclusion based on my experience that there is nothing people have which they attribute to God that cannot come for other, more accessible sources."I felt the joy and happiness that only God can provide!"No, you didn't.You felt the joy and happiness that you think only God can provide... and possibly only the thought of God can provide it for you... but such a statement simply isn't universal. There are many people who have reached levels of joy and happiness equivalent or beyond that which this statement describes... without attributing such to God in any way.It is, of course, possible that someone receives feelings of joy from God while they do not attribute those to God. Some sort of God hidden in the background, or something. And, of course, it's equally possible that when someone attributes these feelings to God... they are simply mistaken.Who's right? I dunno.
How can we tell? I dunno.
Does it matter? No, it does not.What matters are the feelings, not where they came from (if they even came from anyone other than you).
The second we start worrying or arguing over where our Love came from instead of focusing on the Love and promoting it's existence regardless of origin... is the second we start losing that Love.Love, joy and happiness isn't supposed to have rules or definitions or limitations. That's what makes such feelings so powerful. To put them in a box (even one such as "Love comes from God") is to place an unrequired restriction that only serves to reduce the power of these human aspects.It is my personal philosophy that we should focus on the things we know to exist... like Love and Joy and Happiness... rather than to quibble over who may or may not exist behind their curtain.

I thought EvC in general was pretty inviting of folk in all the forums regardless of their religious views.Am I to take this as an update that atheists are not allowed in the Bible Study forum?Jon

My idea for this fora would be to assume that there is some kind of deity or supernatural intent behind the universe. Then to discuss the possible intent or rational behind the world being what it is, given the deity in question made a conscious effort to create.This could be Allah, Yaweh, Odin or whatever, moving in mysterious ways and our job (here) is to provide a rationale for the behaviour of the deity.Kind of like apologetics, but not just for xians.BTW, good to see you here, Phat, this site could do with you as a mod.

Yet we have a Faith & Belief Forum in order to take a break from knowledge. This is a good area to expand. What would the characteristics of an alleged universal Deity be?Is it unfair to assume that said Deity should love us?Is it expecting too much that said Deity pays us any attention, seeing as how a Deity would have the capability.....

Do you love pond scum?Do you pay attention to the desires of pond scum?You certainly have the capability.

Yes, but I had no hand in the creation of, maintenance of, or future of said scum.A Deity, as conceived in the minds of Men, has not only the capability but the will to care for all of creation. Let the Deity worry about the pond scum.You bring up a host of further questions, however.....IF A Deity had no care of or for us, what use would Belief even be?Was it necessary for Man to attempt to understand God? If so, was it entirely for our benefit?

You said "A Deity, as conceived in the minds of Men," so the answer to all your questions is the the deity will be exactly as you imagine that deity to be, and live at Foster's.

I would be looking to examine the properties of the world and infer characteristics about the god from that.For example we know that humans are capable of loving each other. From that we could hypothesise that a god would also be be able to experience love.

If we do that would it not suggest that god is mostly interested in a) his own survival and b) trying to get laid?I always liked the idea of an old man in a cabin with his cat, vaguely aware and smiling through the tears. Balancing between the bitter and the sweet.

If that is where the evidence leads should we shy away from conclusions simply because they conflict with what we want?Even if we do make the assumption that we can infer characteristics of a god from the properties of the world we still a questions such as is the world a reflection of a god or is the god a reflection of the world?How could we even test the difference?

No, we should only follow the evidence. I am sure it is what god would want us to do.Honestly, when I contemplate the mystery of existence I find my thoughts bound and sullied by the relatively primitive ideas of the ancients. How can we be witness to the awesome majesty of the cosmos and assign it’s creation to some creature with childish emotions. It seems to me that god would be concerned with things like the speed of light and the properties of dna and other things of which I have no awareness.The idea of a personal god is beyond the pale of reason and only serves to illuminate our desire for there to be such a thing.

I'm inclined to agree. If there is a creator deity of some kind I can only imagine that either it wants the world this way or it is not omnipotent.If it wants the world the way it is it can fuck off. The pain and suffering in the world is then only necessary because that is what the god wants.If the god is not omnipotent then I can take or leave it depending on what I would get out of worshiping it.As an aside the psychologist in me does wonder about the need for certainty biblical literalists seem to have about the nature of their god.

Larni writes

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If it wants the world the way it is it can fuck off. The pain and suffering in the world is then only necessary because that is what the god wants.

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Nobody seems to have a problem with an omnipotent God who is incapable of producing square circles. Yet many have trouble with an omnipotent God who is incapable of creating freewilled beings incapable of doing something God would prefer they didn't do.Ironically, having the world the way He wants to have it will involve a certain fucking, as you put it, off.Patience, Larni..Edited by iano, : No reason given.

And yet evidence is not a requirement for Faith or Belief.Besides, how do we know that our perceptions are not affected by the evil one?(introducing The Evil One. Entirely optional for the purpose of this discussion.)