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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
AdminPD
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Message 76 of 168 (630036)
08-22-2011 4:14 AM


Topic Please
Free for All doesn't mean free to run amuck.
If anyone really wants to discuss this topic, make a request in the appropriate thread.
AdminPD

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  • Dawn Bertot
    Member
    Posts: 3571
    Joined: 11-23-2007


    Message 77 of 168 (630293)
    08-23-2011 7:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 60 by IamJoseph
    08-21-2011 10:59 PM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    IMJ writes:
    Agreed you are not bound by ritual laws [adherence to names, festivals, dietary laws, etc]; but you are bound to moral/ethical/judiciary commandments which have been accepted as LAW. All such Hebrew laws [non-ritual] are accepted as the LAW - comprehensively and exclusively seen in the Hebrew bible.
    To keep this thread on track, I would like to begin here and move backwards tword the topic.
    IMJ, most of the TEXTUAL laws you say were adoted by society, were actually eixsting intrinsic laws already in the heart of man, long before the written code. ie, "who told you you were naked", because they were ashamed.
    Those laws as you call them were already in eixistence immediately following the fall. "Where is your brother Able". He knew murder and llying was wrong , intrinsically
    If you actually believe moral, ethical and judiciary rules were given by God in the book, non absolutes, then it would follow logically that any other rmoral precepts he has advocated in another testament, would be as binding and VALID
    At bare minimum, you do not have the right to call one MORAL PRECEPT a law, and valid as a law, then suggest that another moral precept in another place, is not actually a law, until you have defined who you think actually gave the law to begin with.
    Depending on the source, one believes the law derived, will determine the validity of the law in the first place as an absolute. Speaking strickly about moral and religious laws, society would not be the determing factor, whether they are helpful or not
    These are not absolutes:
    NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
    NO GOD W/O MOHAMMED AS HIS PROPHET.
    JEWS ARE BORN OF THE DEVIL AND/OR APES.
    It would depend on who one believes gave the command or statement to begin with. If the above are not absolutes because man gave them, then it would follow logically that some other moral code given in another book, by men, are not absolutes either, even if a society did adopt them, even if they are helpful
    The implication should be obvious. depending on whom one believes gave the law , will determine if the statement, "no salvation through me', is valid as an absolute, I hate to break the news to you IMJ, you are not the standard and proclaiming they are not absolutes, because society has not always accepted them, is not the same as demonstrating it logical form
    I think you see your problem.
    1. Those laws were in place before the Jewish writings
    2. Your now forced to choose between God and nature as the source
    3. if God, then it would follow that another set of rules, statements or laws would be just as valid and absolute
    4. If nature, nothing is absolute or better in the sense of absolute
    5. Simply your declaration, as to something not being absolute will not suffice ans is not equal to something being valid, a law or absolute
    See how logic will take you where you need to go?
    As was indicated in Jar's bungling of the topic or thread, 'Did Jesus fulfill any of these Prophecies', freewill uaually has little or nothing to do with Prophecy Prophecy usually concerns God himself and his specific plans, which dont involve a specifc persons plans or decisions
    And has already been indicated, human plans and decisions can alter Prophecy, due to the general nature of prophecy
    Simply because God knows the future, does not mean he directs every detail
    This discussion will move naturally move twords discussions of freewill, and the nature and purpose of prophecy, which I hope admin will see applies to the general discussion
    Since Franko/Frako has abandoned, atleast temporarily, this thread, I am assuming he means prophecy from a God and Biblical perspective
    Dawn Bertot
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 60 by IamJoseph, posted 08-21-2011 10:59 PM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 78 by IamJoseph, posted 08-23-2011 8:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 78 of 168 (630302)
    08-23-2011 8:09 PM
    Reply to: Message 77 by Dawn Bertot
    08-23-2011 7:03 PM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    quote:
    IMJ, most of the TEXTUAL laws you say were adoted by society, were actually eixsting intrinsic laws already in the heart of man, long before the written code.
    Agreed. Truth is intrinsically recognised by humanity and all life forms - we call it a gut feeling; even the premise of evolution subscribes to this, al beit via inanimate matter recogising the best path for survival. Nor do I subscribe transcendent knowledge to a band of savages coming out of ancient Egypt after centuries of enslavement. The point remains it is first introduced in one source, a late comer in the ancient world which did overturn mighty and older nations' premises, denoting a mystery.
    quote:
    ie, "who told you you were naked", because they were ashamed.
    This highlights the deficiant understanding of this text. You fail to see this verse also says that humans will be the only life form requiring clothing, totally altering the value of this verse! One must not read a verse here as superfluous - every alphabet is impacting.
    quote:
    Those laws as you call them were already in eixistence immediately following the fall. "Where is your brother Able". He knew murder and llying was wrong , intrinsically
    Yes, you are correct. The question is not a question, but giving Cain an op to show remorse and admit guilt.
    quote:
    If you actually believe moral, ethical and judiciary rules were given by God in the book,
    Yes, they seem to be included here exclusively, and every one of the laws are active today - a mystery again.
    quote:
    non absolutes, then it would follow logically that any other rmoral precepts he has advocated in another testament, would be as binding and VALID
    Correct. Else all tumbles.
    quote:
    These are not absolutes:
    NO SALVATION BUT THROUGH ME.
    NO GOD W/O MOHAMMED AS HIS PROPHET.
    JEWS ARE BORN OF THE DEVIL AND/OR APES.
    It would depend on who one believes gave the command or statement to begin with. If the above are not absolutes because man gave them, then it would follow logically that some other moral code given in another book, by men, are not absolutes either, even if a society did adopt them, even if they are helpful
    But this is not the case?
    quote:
    The implication should be obvious. depending on whom one believes gave the law , will determine if the statement, "no salvation through me', is valid as an absolute, I hate to break the news to you IMJ, you are not the standard and proclaiming they are not absolutes, because society has not always accepted them, is not the same as demonstrating it logical form
    Its as absolute as Islam's similar statement: and both cannot be right! Once a name is attached to a law, it becomes a non-law and enters belief. The Hebrew bible is not belief based but law based: no names attached and they have to stand on their own. Your law mass murdered and villified millions of innocent folk. Its not a law! Christianity blasphemed the second, most copiously worded commandment from Sinai, while Islam also did the same by attaching a name as the condition for being a believer in a creator.
    Let me put it honestly and bluntly, which I owe you and to myself: the law against image worship was not fulfilled away for any other reason than that Christianity would have gone south if this was insisted upon: Europe simply could not absorb an invisible God - it was against their nature and history. The same applies with the fulfilling away of the dietery laws: Paul would have been thrown out head first if he told Greeks and Romans to abandon pork and shell fish! Keep it honest applies.
    quote:
    As was indicated in Jar's bungling of the topic or thread, 'Did Jesus fulfill any of these Prophecies', freewill uaually has little or nothing to do with Prophecy Prophecy usually concerns God himself and his specific plans, which dont involve a specifc persons plans or decisions
    Disagree. There was no prophesy from the Gospels which can be proven today. Nor even miracles, which are never casual, such as turning water to wine; a miracle must have at its core a meaning for all humanity and creation itself, as with overturning slavery, divine emperors, etc and affirming liberty, inalienable human rights and justice for all based on actions and deeds only. Thus a good Christian is better than a bad Jew or bad Muslim; the reverse of what is advocated in the NT & Quran, both being the destructive struggle seen in ancient Egypt, Rome, medevial Europe and Islam today. There is no alternative to the belief in only an invisibe, indecribable and unquantifying Creator, and magestic laws. remember that only complicated, complex laws tumbled down from Sinai, beginng with the first utterence - and to a band of newly freed slavery who expected anything but!
    quote:
    And has already been indicated, human plans and decisions can alter Prophecy, due to the general nature of prophecy
    Disagree. Our choices and abilities are limited. True prophesy comes via man, not from man, and it must never contradict a past prophesy in any manner whatsoever.
    quote:
    Simply because God knows the future, does not mean he directs every detail
    This is a hedy issue. We have freedom of choice only in moral/ethical decisions, then too it is limited by the community rights as overiding the individual. We have no choices outside of moral/ethical laws of any impact: one can opt to stop breathing, but for how long? Choosing between a red Merc or gree honda is not a choice; choosing between a red or green Merc is. There is a manifest reason why ALL of the Hebrew laws are active today, while not a single one comes from the Gospels or Quran. A great mystery!
    quote:
    This discussion will move naturally move twords discussions of freewill, and the nature and purpose of prophecy, which I hope admin will see applies to the general discussion
    You have to be first cautioned, which has not been the case here.
    quote:
    Since Franko/Frako has abandoned, atleast temporarily, this thread, I am assuming he means prophecy from a God and Biblical perspective
    What other kind is there? Unlike the stiff necked Israelites, it appears none in Europe asked the critical questions or dmand proof - perhaps that's why an ever challenging group was chosen? Do you not see Israel's re-emergence as a fulfilled prophesy - it counters, NOT A BRICK SHALL STAND and ITS A BLESSING TO KILL JEWS?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 77 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-23-2011 7:03 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 79 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-23-2011 11:45 PM IamJoseph has replied

    Dawn Bertot
    Member
    Posts: 3571
    Joined: 11-23-2007


    Message 79 of 168 (630322)
    08-23-2011 11:45 PM
    Reply to: Message 78 by IamJoseph
    08-23-2011 8:09 PM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    Agreed. Truth is intrinsically recognised by humanity and all life forms - we call it a gut feeling; even the premise of evolution subscribes to this, al beit via inanimate matter recogising the best path for survival.
    lets do this simply, before we get to far into a discussion and we are going in two different directions
    Do YOU believe God exists? Not can it be proved, do you believe it?
    Do you believe God is the author of the scriptures, OLD TEST? Please no disortations
    This highlights the deficiant understanding of this text. You fail to see this verse also says that humans will be the only life form requiring clothing, totally altering the value of this verse! One must not read a verse here as superfluous - every alphabet is impacting.
    Well Im not sure how that applies to anything I said
    Disagree. There was no prophesy from the Gospels which can be proven today. Nor even miracles, which are never casual, such as turning water to wine; a miracle must have at its core a meaning for all humanity and creation itself, as with overturning slavery, divine emperors, etc and affirming liberty, inalienable human rights and justice for all based on actions and deeds only.
    the words "must have at its core" are an absolute statement. Which means that you can prove your OT prophecies are from God and absolute in thier truthfulness. Otherwise your statement and its absolute categorical enphasis are worthless.
    Your speaking about miracles as if you have absolute truth of thier characteization. How dio you know what the rules are for miracles. Are you deciding this because you favor the Old testament
    Thus a good Christian is better than a bad Jew or bad Muslim; the reverse of what is advocated in the NT & Quran, both being the destructive struggle seen in ancient Egypt, Rome, medevial Europe and Islam today. There is no alternative to the belief in only an invisibe, indecribable and unquantifying Creator, and magestic laws. remember that only complicated, complex laws tumbled down from Sinai, beginng with the first utterence - and to a band of newly freed slavery who expected anything but!
    This has nothing to do with the topic of the thread
    This is a hedy issue. We have freedom of choice only in moral/ethical decisions, then too it is limited by the community rights as overiding the individual.
    IMJ, your statement s are to categorical. buying a and choosing a car is not a moral issue
    Choosing between a red Merc or gree honda is not a choice; choosing between a red or green Merc is.
    you could not for your life show why both are not a choice.
    There is a manifest reason why ALL of the Hebrew laws are active today, while not a single one comes from the Gospels or Quran. A great mystery!
    there is no mystery IMJ. Humans had to start with the simple first. the simple remains and is added upon as the grow in understanding
    "In the fullness of time God sent for his Son into the world" Galatians
    the laws of the Gospel are as active in thier place and for what God intended them, as they ever were.
    Dawn Bertot
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 78 by IamJoseph, posted 08-23-2011 8:09 PM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 80 by IamJoseph, posted 08-24-2011 12:35 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 80 of 168 (630324)
    08-24-2011 12:35 AM
    Reply to: Message 79 by Dawn Bertot
    08-23-2011 11:45 PM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    quote:
    Do YOU believe God exists? Not can it be proved, do you believe it?
    Yes I don't believe there are any real atheists as well.
    quote:
    Do you believe God is the author of the scriptures, OLD TEST? Please no disortations
    The author is given as Moses, said to be via a dictation in 42 stops in a desert. Belief does not impact here; far greater if one accepts it by contemplation and also devil's advocate. A wrong belief can be inculcated very easily because it is the most exploitable factor of all, as in a religion or ideology: they cannot all be right. Very few of us question our beliefs - it is akin to jumping into an abyss. I do agree with what I have read of the Hebrew bible more so than any other scriptures. I got sucked in by its literary merit first and foremost, then by its mathematical excellence. I regard it as the most credible historical writings of the ancient world and one which stands up today with great vindication, despite the FX miracles also contained therein.
    quote:
    This highlights the deficiant understanding of this text. You fail to see this verse also says that humans will be the only life form requiring clothing, totally altering the value of this verse! One must not read a verse here as superfluous - every alphabet is impacting.
    Well Im not sure how that applies to anything I said
    The only factor in the verse is that humans uniquely live with attire; although there are levels of deeper meanings included. 'We leave this life only with the garment of our deeds' - K. Solomon.
    quote:
    Disagree. There was no prophesy from the Gospels which can be proven today. Nor even miracles, which are never casual, such as turning water to wine; a miracle must have at its core a meaning for all humanity and creation itself, as with overturning slavery, divine emperors, etc and affirming liberty, inalienable human rights and justice for all based on actions and deeds only.
    the words "must have at its core" are an absolute statement. Which means that you can prove your OT prophecies are from God and absolute in thier truthfulness. Otherwise your statement and its absolute categorical enphasis are worthless.
    It must be hard, but see it instead as a test. Chrstians exulted with a passion in the death of a nation, boasting this is from God, using terms like 'rebel' for what was and remains the greatest defense of a faith in all recorded history. It was hardly love by any imagination, and the deeds of Europe speak for themselves - America is the candidate for saving Christianity - from medevial Europe! Its an enigma how such was accepted by 2B humans as Godly or as love. It was certainly not a prophesy - Europe failed this testing, as did Muslims did too when they failed to welcome Jews to their land during the holocaust. Now they are affronted by Israel existing, when they should be happy of it. Go ahead and deny it!
    quote:
    Your speaking about miracles as if you have absolute truth of thier characteization. How dio you know what the rules are for miracles. Are you deciding this because you favor the Old testament
    This was stated in hard copy text before it occured - fully proven. By contrast, we have no proof of the Gospels being written before the Roman war which destroyed Judea. Otherwise I would hail the Gospels as a true absolute prophesy. As it stands I cannot, nor can anyone else.
    quote:
    This is a hedy issue. We have freedom of choice only in moral/ethical decisions, then too it is limited by the community rights as overiding the individual.
    IMJ, your statement s are to categorical. buying a and choosing a car is not a moral issue
    Choosing between a red Merc or green honda is not a choice; choosing between a red or green Merc is.
    quote:
    you could not for your life show why both are not a choice.
    Yes, I can. Consider them as credible, impacting choices or frivilous ones which do not impact. Anyone would select a Merc to a Honda. A true choice should include a hard decision of two equivalent values.
    quote:
    There is a manifest reason why ALL of the Hebrew laws are active today, while not a single one comes from the Gospels or Quran. A great mystery!
    there is no mystery IMJ. Humans had to start with the simple first. the simple remains and is added upon as the grow in understanding
    Pls quote some laws from the Gospels or Quran - those emerged in a later, more grown up age.
    quote:
    "In the fullness of time God sent for his Son into the world" Galatians
    the laws of the Gospel are as active in thier place and for what God intended them, as they ever were.
    "God is not like man" [Samuel].
    You are cherry picking what suits you, ignoring the impacting laws which do not suit. Your ancesters had no choices here - they would have been villified and put in ghettoes if they did not toe the medevial European post-Roman belief. A precedence sets off more of the same: does a granson also apply? One can believe in pink zebras - that is their right. One cannot impose their beliefs on others and villify them if they don't agree. Calling the Hebrew bible as OLD and transcended by a new belief 2000 years apart, with no history of observance in monotheism, is presumtious and a heritage genocide. Consider that Islam did unto you what you did unto the Hebrew bible? I am not trying to be harsh with you, only honest, limited to a non-personal debate.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 79 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-23-2011 11:45 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 81 by AdminPD, posted 08-24-2011 4:41 AM IamJoseph has replied
     Message 82 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-25-2011 12:06 AM IamJoseph has replied

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 81 of 168 (630331)
    08-24-2011 4:41 AM
    Reply to: Message 80 by IamJoseph
    08-24-2011 12:35 AM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    Laws are not the issue. Prophecy is the issue.
    Does it interfere with free will?
    From what I can tell, you and DB agree that prophecy does not negate free will.
    The rest of your discussion seems more about differences of belief which isn't really part of this topic.
    If you want to do discuss Christian Laws, then go to that thread please.
    Don't get lost in your differences.
    Thanks
    AdminPD

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 80 by IamJoseph, posted 08-24-2011 12:35 AM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by IamJoseph, posted 08-25-2011 1:19 AM AdminPD has replied

    Dawn Bertot
    Member
    Posts: 3571
    Joined: 11-23-2007


    Message 82 of 168 (630396)
    08-25-2011 12:06 AM
    Reply to: Message 80 by IamJoseph
    08-24-2011 12:35 AM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    Very few of us question our beliefs - it is akin to jumping into an abyss. I do agree with what I have read of the Hebrew bible more so than any other scriptures. I got sucked in by its literary merit first and foremost, then by its mathematical excellence.
    Crucial to any discussion involving a text from the scriptures, especially those involving prophecy and its relation to freewill is ones personal beliefs concerning the things also in the text that describe the source of the prophecy, ie, God said this or that, God did this or that
    If I cant define whether you actually believe God was the author of the prophecy, it matters little whether it affects freewill
    The logical implication of such a belief is that if God dictates every move, then freewill is circumvented
    Is God the author and finisher of those prophecies? Please no rehtoric
    This was stated in hard copy text before it occured - fully proven. By contrast, we have no proof of the Gospels being written before the Roman war which destroyed Judea. Otherwise I would hail the Gospels as a true absolute prophesy. As it stands I cannot, nor can anyone else.
    Im sure you believe all the schalorship concerning the OT, as well do I accept for example FF Bruce as a credible source for the dating of the NT, which would confound your premises above.
    That was not my point. Your categorical contention was that a prophecy or miracle must have a credible impact on all of humanity, not a single person, for it to be a true and valid miracle
    I believe you make this distinction due to favoring the OT. if not, what is your cirteria for demanding a prophecy follow your guidelines? Is God its author?
    Yes, I can. Consider them as credible, impacting choices or frivilous ones which do not impact. Anyone would select a Merc to a Honda. A true choice should include a hard decision of two equivalent values.
    Equivalent values have very little to do with the actual nature of a choice. To demonstrate what you originally intended, you would have to demonstrate that a mental process was not employed and involved. The only way to demonstrate this is to show a choice never took place. There was never any consideration concerning anything. You cant do that
    If I make a decision (choice) to jump off a building, believing I wont hit the ground, that wont change the law of gravity. In the same way, values have nothing directly to do with what the nature of a choice is. It is what it is just like gravity
    This is where the skeptic gets in to logical trouble, in acusing God of Evil, even if he did create freewill. Your making the same logical error
    For them to prove God as evil, they would need to show that freewill does not involve equal ability to do the right thing as well as the wrong. thats the nature of freewill. Of course there is no way to do that, so thier accusation falls to the ground
    You are cherry picking what suits you, ignoring the impacting laws which do not suit. Your ancesters had no choices here - they would have been villified and put in ghettoes if they did not toe the medevial European post-Roman belief. A precedence sets off more of the same: does a granson also apply? One can believe in pink zebras - that is their right. One cannot impose their beliefs on others and villify them if they don't agree. Calling the Hebrew bible as OLD and transcended by a new belief 2000 years apart, with no history of observance in monotheism, is presumtious and a heritage genocide. Consider that Islam did unto you what you did unto the Hebrew bible? I am not trying to be harsh with you, only honest, limited to a non-personal debate.
    Your hatred for xtianites tenets notwithstanding, you seem unable to remember the point to which I am responding. your contention was that they have been around a long time and accepted by society. You called this a mystery.
    I reponded by saying Humans needed to start somewhere, why not the basics. Did you expect God (Moses) to bring down all the Levitical laws from the mountain? The basics were simply repeated and canonized. Like the NT he gradulized the people to the more involved tenets
    Contrasting purposes for Old and NT laws does not prove that the latter is not in place, accepted or of no value. Your missing the purpose of the nature of education
    "God who in different ways and in different methods, in times past, spoke to us from Moses and the prophets, but hathin these last days spoken unto us by his Son Jesus Christ"
    Hebrews
    Dawn Bertot
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 80 by IamJoseph, posted 08-24-2011 12:35 AM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 83 by IamJoseph, posted 08-25-2011 1:05 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 83 of 168 (630401)
    08-25-2011 1:05 AM
    Reply to: Message 82 by Dawn Bertot
    08-25-2011 12:06 AM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    quote:
    If I cant define whether you actually believe God was the author of the prophecy, it matters little whether it affects freewill
    However sincere it is, the term BELIEF should be set aside here; everyone has belief, a generic, inherent trait - but all beliefs are not right or true - they contradict each other in core values. The issue is also not about what I think - the text says Moses authored the five Mosaic books and that it was dictated to him by Gd.
    Infact, there is section where four sisters challenge Moses concerning their right to their father's heritance, wheich the law said must go to the sons or his tribe if he had no sons. IMHO, this is the first recording of women's rights. Moses says he sees their point but he does not know what to do, and that in the next 'Tent of the Meeting' - he will ask Gd. This affirms the dictation factor. So yes, we can say it is from Gd or we can say it is greater because it is from the hand of a human: the creator does not need to be lauded here and any task is not above the Creator. BTW, the women won the case and the answer given Moses of the right decision as to how to proceed was an excellent one.
    quote:
    The logical implication of such a belief is that if God dictates every move, then freewill is circumvented
    Is God the author and finisher of those prophecies? Please no rehtoric
    Authour was Moses [the text]; prophesy vindication is by Gd via an intrument.
    quote:
    Im sure you believe all the schalorship concerning the OT, as well do I accept for example FF Bruce as a credible source for the dating of the NT, which would confound your premises above.
    We have no proof of a single apostle being a real historical figure and not a shred of contemporary writings in Hebrew or Greek. I understand this is also not available of the Hebrew, however these were different times and the same condition cannot apply. Not for me personally at least. Nor do I accept the notion of Jews dancing about their own nation's demise or foresaking their laws as being fulfilled away, or of calling their temple as a den of satan. These are 100% false versions of history, smacks only of pre-Christian Roman tongues - the real reason no proof exists and only belief is presented in its place.
    Someone is telling biblical fibs between the three religions - and its not up for negotiation. Someone has to bite the bullet. Its also not a finger pointing at today's believing folk - we are victims here.
    quote:
    That was not my point. Your categorical contention was that a prophecy or miracle must have a credible impact on all of humanity, not a single person, for it to be a true and valid miracle
    I believe you make this distinction due to favoring the OT. if not, what is your cirteria for demanding a prophecy follow your guidelines? Is God its author?
    Consider the import of a true prophet making miracles for frivilous reasons? Can you show me a single Hebrew prophet who did such? I rest my case.
    quote:
    Yes, I can. Consider them as credible, impacting choices or frivilous ones which do not impact. Anyone would select a Merc to a Honda. A true choice should include a hard decision of two equivalent values.
    Equivalent values have very little to do with the actual nature of a choice. To demonstrate what you originally intended, you would have to demonstrate that a mental process was not employed and involved. The only way to demonstrate this is to show a choice never took place. There was never any consideration concerning anything. You cant do that
    If I make a decision (choice) to jump off a building, believing I wont hit the ground, that wont change the law of gravity. In the same way, values have nothing directly to do with what the nature of a choice is. It is what it is just like gravity
    This is where the skeptic gets in to logical trouble, in acusing God of Evil, even if he did create freewill. Your making the same logical error
    For them to prove God as evil, they would need to show that freewill does not involve equal ability to do the right thing as well as the wrong. thats the nature of freewill. Of course there is no way to do that, so thier accusation falls to the ground
    Free will, in the context of interaction with Gdliness, is a spiritual occurence; it cannot be frivilous or in vain or pertaining to personal vanity. This is a vain human endeavour between humans only. If one examines the dialogue between Moses and the creator - not a single word is superfluous; it is as if any one in this situation even retrospectively with today's advanced knowledge at hand, would ponder the right question and answers very deeply. It is a writing for all future generations, as we do now in this forum. It cannot be frivilous - such as turning water into wine, yet ignoring Rome at the door! The Gospel's Jesus failed here - and differed from Moses.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 82 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-25-2011 12:06 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 87 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2011 1:14 AM IamJoseph has replied

    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 84 of 168 (630402)
    08-25-2011 1:19 AM
    Reply to: Message 81 by AdminPD
    08-24-2011 4:41 AM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    quote:
    From what I can tell, you and DB agree that prophecy does not negate free will.
    IMHO:
    Free will is a testing against laws; no laws mean no issue with free will; no free will means no need for laws. Prophesy cannot contradict on what was given previously from the same source, based on the premise Gd is truth. The Gospels nontheless says the laws given previously are now fullfilled away, and presenting this as a prophesy from the same source. It is a chaos and it set the world imersed into the same chaos - all these three religions want to kill or die for this chaos upon humanity today. We are still at a very primitive stage to accept such a situation.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 81 by AdminPD, posted 08-24-2011 4:41 AM AdminPD has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 85 by AdminPD, posted 08-25-2011 11:39 AM IamJoseph has not replied

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 85 of 168 (630459)
    08-25-2011 11:39 AM
    Reply to: Message 84 by IamJoseph
    08-25-2011 1:19 AM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    You're going a bit overboard on the law part.
    Make sure what you're presenting is tied back to the topic.
    Please do not respond to this message.
    AdminPD

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 84 by IamJoseph, posted 08-25-2011 1:19 AM IamJoseph has not replied

    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    (1)
    Message 86 of 168 (630469)
    08-25-2011 2:00 PM


    One look at the problem
    For the purposes of this post I will use the common definitions, where prophecy refers to the conveyance of infallible knowledge of the future and free will refers to libertarian free will.
    Let us assume, as has been suggested, that where prophecy refers to human actions it works in the same way as ordinary predictions of human actions. In that case prophecy would simply mean using our knowledge of a person to predict what they will do when presented with a particular situation. But such predictions can only be infallibly accurate if that person, given a particular situation will always act in exactly the same way. i.e human behaviour must be deterministic.
    However, libertarian free will denies that human behaviour is deterministic. If prophecy of human actions is to be compatible with free will, it cannot be based on the same principles that we use to predict what people will do.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 88 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 1:28 AM PaulK has replied

    Dawn Bertot
    Member
    Posts: 3571
    Joined: 11-23-2007


    Message 87 of 168 (630523)
    08-26-2011 1:14 AM
    Reply to: Message 83 by IamJoseph
    08-25-2011 1:05 AM


    Re: Prediction Doesn't Interfere With Free Will
    This affirms the dictation factor. So yes, we can say it is from Gd or we can say it is greater because it is from the hand of a human: the creator does not need to be lauded here and any task is not above the Creator
    Exxxxxxxxcellent as Mr Burns would say, now we may proceed.
    We have no proof of a single apostle being a real historical figure and not a shred of contemporary writings in Hebrew or Greek.
    Sure we do, we have the writings themself. Then we have the Apostolic fathers and early Christian writers, some of which were contemporaries with the Apostles
    Could all of that been corroborated, forged and fantasy. Only the person holding thier hands tightly over thier ears would deny the weight of evidence concerning these peoples existence.
    Im sure you are aware there is much more proof corroborating the NT writings, than the old, correct? Even though I believe in thold as the word of God as well
    Consider the import of a true prophet making miracles for frivilous reasons? Can you show me a single Hebrew prophet who did such? I rest my case.
    Again you are making rules up as you go. Who defines frivilous?
    Jesus said, "If you do not believe the words that I speak, then believe me for the miracles sake, because they testify of me"
    Confirming his sonship and that he is from God is frivilous? Which of the prophets that performed miricles in private for one or a few people would you call vain or frivirlous?
    Dont sit down to soon and rest your backside (case), you have some splain to do lucy
    "which is it easier to do, tell the man to take up his bed and walk or tell him his sins are forgiven" Dont both prove he is God?
    Free will, in the context of interaction with Gdliness, is a spiritual occurence; it cannot be frivilous or in vain or pertaining to personal vanity.
    I agree, but you havent demonstrated or shown form reason or the NT, why any prophecy or miracle was in vain or personal vanity. Unless you are saying God is vain
    This is a vain human endeavour between humans only. If one examines the dialogue between Moses and the creator - not a single word is superfluous; it is as if any one in this situation even retrospectively with today's advanced knowledge at hand, would ponder the right question and answers very deeply. It is a writing for all future generations, as we do now in this forum. It cannot be frivilous - such as turning water into wine, yet ignoring Rome at the door! The Gospel's Jesus failed here - and differed from Moses.
    Reuniting man to God is a failure? Assisting people to see that he was God in the flesh, is a failure?
    Why is water into wine different than a burning bush? In each instance God is trying to impress upon his Apostle (Moses in solitude or the Apostles by themself in a boat), who and what he was, as he walked on the water
    Werent both the Apostles, Moses and the others isolated in such instances. I see no vainity
    Dawn Bertot
    God doesnt deal in the trivial
    Ps I noticed you left by the wayside my last argument of the definition and explanation choice, and freewill.
    freewill is like gravity, it is what it is, even if i defy it temporarily. its properties are the same irregardless, correct. Choice doesnt need equivalent values, to be a choice, wouldnt you agree?
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 83 by IamJoseph, posted 08-25-2011 1:05 AM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 91 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 2:24 AM Dawn Bertot has replied

    IamJoseph
    Member (Idle past 3668 days)
    Posts: 2822
    Joined: 06-30-2007


    Message 88 of 168 (630524)
    08-26-2011 1:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 86 by PaulK
    08-25-2011 2:00 PM


    Re: One look at the problem
    Don't you think the notion of competition with free will becomes mooted where two factor are not inclusive, namely:
    Where free will contradicts the law of the land it is not free will anymore but a violation?
    and
    Where prophesy contradicts previous prophesy it is more in competition with the source it appears to represent?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 86 by PaulK, posted 08-25-2011 2:00 PM PaulK has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 89 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-26-2011 1:46 AM IamJoseph has replied
     Message 90 by PaulK, posted 08-26-2011 1:47 AM IamJoseph has replied

    Dawn Bertot
    Member
    Posts: 3571
    Joined: 11-23-2007


    Message 89 of 168 (630525)
    08-26-2011 1:46 AM
    Reply to: Message 88 by IamJoseph
    08-26-2011 1:28 AM


    Re: One look at the problem
    Where prophesy contradicts previous prophesy it is more in competition with the source it appears to represent?
    You always make categorical statements, but never show why the comparisons, in this instance specific prophecies contradict eachother
    You make a statement as if we are suppose to accept, simply because you stated it
    Where free will contradicts the law of the land it is not free will anymore but a violation?
    You reasoning always seems to be a few degrees off. freewill and choice are what they are irregardless of what I do. the actual principle doesnt change, it cant, even if I do
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
    Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 88 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 1:28 AM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 92 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 2:26 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

    PaulK
    Member
    Posts: 17822
    Joined: 01-10-2003
    Member Rating: 2.2


    Message 90 of 168 (630526)
    08-26-2011 1:47 AM
    Reply to: Message 88 by IamJoseph
    08-26-2011 1:28 AM


    Re: One look at the problem
    If you understand the notion of free will you would understand that it makes no difference whether a freely willed action violates the law of the land.
    If you understand even the basics of logic you would realise that it is impossible for two true statements to contradict. Therefore prophecies, as defined for the purpose of my post, cannot come into conflict.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 88 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 1:28 AM IamJoseph has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 93 by IamJoseph, posted 08-26-2011 2:29 AM PaulK has replied

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