Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,397 Year: 3,654/9,624 Month: 525/974 Week: 138/276 Day: 12/23 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Is agnosticism more intellectually honest?
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


(1)
Message 13 of 95 (630543)
08-26-2011 6:00 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Wollysaurus
08-25-2011 2:54 PM


Empiricism and the silly
How can we claim to know anything? If philosophy has achieved anything over the last two thousand years it's demonstrating beyond reasonable doubt that we can't be 100% certain of anything.
So, the rational course of action is to retreat from 100% certainty to trying to give the best answers we can. Fortunately, we've developed over the last few hundred years a pretty good way of getting at these best answers: science or, more specifically, the scientific method. Empirical investigation of the world has allowed us to understand a breathtaking array of things.
Take lightning as an example: the Norse thought it was Thor's hammer being thrown at the giants, we now know it's an electrical discharge. Does understanding electricity let us prove that Thor's hammer is not involved? Or that particular lightning strike you just saw was an electrical discharge? No. Instead, we follow the rational approach of assuming that once we've got a decent, consistent explanation for things that we've derived via the scientific method from empirical investigation of the world that we can discount other explanations and assume that the explanation holds in all cases until counter-evidence is found. We ignore other blurted explanations unless we can find evidence for them.
Where, then, does that leave god? There is no empirical evidence for god. God has never been derived from empirical investigation of the world via the scientific method. The only reason we even given theism any mind at all is that an awful lot of people already believe in it. If someone came up with the idea of god today, we'd simply ignore them because of their overwhelming lack of evidence. That isn't the case with any scientific fact: if no-one knew about evolution, say, we could still deduce it from the world and show our working and evidence. Ditto DNA, gravity, Hooke's Law, etc., etc.
I don't believe god created the universe for the same reason I don't believe the equally rational explanation that it was spunked into existence by a giant fish being masturbated by a baboon - there's no rational reason to believe. There's no evidence.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Wollysaurus, posted 08-25-2011 2:54 PM Wollysaurus has not replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 14 of 95 (630544)
08-26-2011 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-25-2011 10:09 PM


Intellectual dishonest applies to beliefs
Honesty and dishonest have nothing to do with any of the three positions as long as the individual actually does hold the belief expressed.
Not so. A belief can be honestly held while still being intellectually dishonest.
Intellectual honesty is about the internal consistency of beliefs, and the willingness to recognise, accept and deal with criticism and challenge to those beliefs in a rational manner.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-25-2011 10:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-26-2011 8:21 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 20 of 95 (630579)
08-26-2011 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
08-26-2011 8:21 AM


Re: Intellectual dishonest applies to beliefs
I don't know about 'need', but they're not intellectually honest unless they are.
That's one of the cornerstone of what intellectually honest belief systems are all about.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 08-26-2011 8:21 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 08-26-2011 10:55 AM Dr Jack has replied

  
Dr Jack
Member
Posts: 3514
From: Immigrant in the land of Deutsch
Joined: 07-14-2003
Member Rating: 8.4


Message 60 of 95 (630721)
08-27-2011 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
08-26-2011 10:55 AM


Jar is not Humpty Dumpty
It's not a question of belief, that's just flat what the term "intellectually honest" means.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 08-26-2011 10:55 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 08-27-2011 7:41 AM Dr Jack has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024