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Author Topic:   The problems of big bang theory. What are they?
Percy
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Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 241 of 389 (630064)
08-22-2011 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by Portillo
08-22-2011 5:15 AM


Portillo writes:
Everything that comes to be has a cause.
What causes virtual particles?
--Percy

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Huntard
Member (Idle past 2294 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 242 of 389 (630066)
08-22-2011 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 240 by Larni
08-22-2011 8:24 AM


Larni writes:
I have to agree with Annafan.
If everything needs a cause as per your stipulation any god you invoke would also need a cause. You can't have it both ways.
Well, I think you two better prepare yourself for a semantics game about the words "comes to be". Since He'll most likely opine that his god never "came to be" but simply is eternal.

This message is a reply to:
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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 243 of 389 (630074)
08-22-2011 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Huntard
08-22-2011 8:36 AM


Yet, for some reason nothing else can be. Just wait for the special pleading.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 244 of 389 (630075)
08-22-2011 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Huntard
08-22-2011 8:36 AM


Makes you wonder what he was doing for the eternity before Genesis.

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 245 of 389 (630083)
08-22-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 244 by Larni
08-22-2011 9:43 AM


Making Hell for people that ask that question! Allegedly. (According to Augustine).

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1.61803
Member (Idle past 1503 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 246 of 389 (630086)
08-22-2011 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 241 by Percy
08-22-2011 8:30 AM


Virtual particles are caused by disturbances in the force.

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Larni
Member (Idle past 163 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 247 of 389 (630095)
08-22-2011 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by PaulK
08-22-2011 10:39 AM


Well, I'll just have to keep my fool mouth shut from now on, then. I don't want to kiss off a god!

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 250 by AZPaul3, posted 08-22-2011 11:54 AM Larni has not replied

AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 248 of 389 (630098)
08-22-2011 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 246 by 1.61803
08-22-2011 10:56 AM


Virtual Begat Virtual?
I'm trying to recall where, but as I understand there are two solutions in QFT that give rise to virtual particles. One gives the spontaneous creation/annihilation of pairs and the other gives the creation/annihilation of pairs from the disturbances of neighboring virtual events.
So, yes, virtual pairs may indeed be caused by disturbances (prior virtual pair creation/annihilation) in the force (spacetime).
You may in fact be right and didn't need the smiley after all!

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fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 249 of 389 (630099)
08-22-2011 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Larni
08-22-2011 11:31 AM


I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think if there was a God, then this planet is his version of reality TV, complete with many different interpretations of himself, just to keep things interesting mind you. If we all believed the same things then there would be a whole lot less killing and fighting, now that would be just boring to sit back and watch.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 250 of 389 (630100)
08-22-2011 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 247 by Larni
08-22-2011 11:31 AM


I don't want to kiss off a god!
Some people just have no appreciation for the work of others.
Look at what he made in 6 days. An entire beautiful universe.
Can you imagine what he would have made given the whole pre-universe eternity?
Must be one hell of a place!
All that effort and you really don't want to go see?

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Portillo
Member (Idle past 4160 days)
Posts: 258
Joined: 11-14-2010


Message 251 of 389 (630806)
08-28-2011 2:24 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Annafan
08-22-2011 5:53 AM


Everything that comes to be has a cause. God didnt come to be so he doesnt need a cause. The scientific evidence points to the universe having a beginning. Evidence from scientists such as Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking have pointed to the universe having a beginning. Some atheists believe that the universe did not have a beginning and is eternal and uncaused. If the atheist can have an eternal uncaused universe, why cant a theist have an eternal uncaused God? Why is it rational to believe that the universe is uncaused and irrational to believe that God is uncaused?

And the conspiracy was strong, for the people increased continually - 2 Samuel 15:12

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 254 by Pressie, posted 08-29-2011 6:03 AM Portillo has replied

cavediver
Member (Idle past 3643 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 252 of 389 (630807)
08-28-2011 4:27 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Portillo
08-28-2011 2:24 AM


Some atheists believe that the universe did not have a beginning and is eternal and uncaused.
As do many non-atheist scientists. Many advanced speculative cosmological theories involve an eternal Universe, and many Christians, Moslems, Jews, Atheists, etc, etc are involved in this research.
If the atheist can have an eternal uncaused universe, why cant a theist have an eternal uncaused God? Why is it rational to believe that the universe is uncaused and irrational to believe that God is uncaused?
I think that this is really the wrong way round. The argument has typically been:
Theist: everything has a cause, and so the Universe must have a cause, and that cause must be God
Atheist: if everything has a cause, then what caused God?
Theist: Ah, God doesn't require a cause
Atheist: Well then, why does the Universe?
I don't think there is anything wrong in suggesting an eternal uncaused deity, though to have an eternal consciousness is somewhat dubious, and rather smacks of naive anthropomorphism.
Also, the word eternal needs clarifying. Eternal typically refers to time which is is an intrinsic dimension of our Universe. I would have thought that any self-respecting deity would be outside the confines of the dimensions of our Universe, and so perhaps a different word is required?
Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.

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Maartenn100
Member (Idle past 4592 days)
Posts: 39
From: Belgium Antwerp
Joined: 08-13-2011


Message 253 of 389 (630876)
08-28-2011 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 252 by cavediver
08-28-2011 4:27 AM


I do not believe in the Big Bang either.
I have my own theory
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Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.
Edited by Maartenn100, : No reason given.

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Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


(1)
Message 254 of 389 (630905)
08-29-2011 6:03 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by Portillo
08-28-2011 2:24 AM


Portillo writes:
Everything that comes to be has a cause. God didnt come to be so he doesnt need a cause.
Special pleading. If you want to provide 'evidence' in the form of an 'argument', logical falacies really are completely unconvincing.
Portillo writes:
Some atheists believe that the universe did not have a beginning and is eternal and uncaused.
This atheist certainly doesn't believe anything like that. This atheist doesn't know what happened and that's it.
Portillo writes:
If the atheist can have an eternal uncaused universe, .....
Except they don't. You set up a straw-man on what you think atheists actually 'believe'. This atheist just does not believe the story about a woman made from the ribs of a man made from mud who got a 'a breath of life' from some spook. And then the spook apparantly got mad at the mud man and the rib women with the 'breath from a spook' and chased them out of a garden. I don't believe ridiculously crazy stories like that. That's it.
Portillo writes:
...why cant a theist have an eternal uncaused God?
That's your argument, not mine. Don't reflect your bad 'arguments' on atheists. You've got a very bad 'argument', relying on special pleading and on nothing else.
Portillo writes:
...Why is it rational to believe that the universe is uncaused and irrational to believe that God is uncaused?
It isn't. That's why atheists don't use that 'argument'.
I think that you, Portillo, still have a problem in distinguishing what the differences between atheism and science actually are. They are completely different things, you know? Then, after that, you reflect your bad arguments on other people. Straw-man arguments.
I am an atheist, because there is no objective evidence for the existence of any kind of god. That's it. Very bad "arguments', relying on special pleading, like the one's you used in this thread, (special pleading and straw-men) don't do theists like you any favours.
Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 255 of 389 (630918)
08-29-2011 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by Maartenn100
08-28-2011 8:57 PM


No big bang??
Oops.
Ignoring the silly stuff, you neglected to explain the microwave background radiation.

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