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Author Topic:   The Essence Of Faith & Belief.
jar
Member
Posts: 33415
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 16 of 189 (630934)
08-29-2011 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
08-29-2011 12:48 PM


Re: This is my idea.
Is there any Biblical support for "the Evil One"?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 15 by Phat, posted 08-29-2011 12:48 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 17 of 189 (630935)
08-29-2011 12:55 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
08-29-2011 12:48 PM


introducing The Evil One

I kid, I kid.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 189 (630936)
08-29-2011 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Dogmafood
08-29-2011 9:28 AM


The Evil One
Dogmafood writes:

...we should only follow the evidence. I am sure it is what god would want us to do.

And yet the very concept of logic, reason, and reality seems to threaten the idea of Faith & Belief, or in other words, whatever the heck we want to believe to be true.

So many questions, so many directions....and so many tentative conclusions!

If I am imagining a God, and that God doesnt stack up to the ways that I was taught that such a God should be, what am I to make of it?

jar writes:

Is there any Biblical support for "the Evil One"?

Actually, not much. The devil is certainly much discussed and blamed in evangelical circles, however. Perhaps he serves as a scapegoat for the bad behavior of some Christians.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 19 of 189 (630937)
08-29-2011 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by New Cat's Eye
08-29-2011 12:55 PM


The Evil 1.
Actually that particular "1" is rather rainbow colored...though traditions say that the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. (Or perhaps he is gay...)

Every hero needs a villain, though. If we had no global villain to blame the behavioral imperfections of humanity on, it would force us to look smack dab at ourselves and at our inclinations to justify greed, lust, envy, and all the rest of those deadly sins that we do.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(2)
Message 20 of 189 (630938)
08-29-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by iano
08-29-2011 12:32 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
iano writes:

Ironically, having the world the way He wants to have it will involve a certain fucking, as you put it, off.

Patience, Larni..

Spoken like a man who has not experienced the kind of "fucking off" that is forced on so many innocent's in this world.

I agree with Larni... who is actually not-disagreeing with you.

As far as I know, you very well may be right.
If God exists, I just hope He's not omnipotent. Otherwise He does not deserve anything better than a punch in the nose. An omnipotent God does not deserve to ask for patience if He is so morally void as to have created conditions that allow for some of the things that go on in this world.

If the evil that is within this world is required in order for free-will to exist... then a worthy God would never allow this world to come into being in the first place.


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Phat
Member
Posts: 15608
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 21 of 189 (630939)
08-29-2011 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by iano
08-29-2011 12:32 PM


Human Beliefs regarding Gods Plan
Faith & Belief often involve a belief in God. Some would argue that the uninitiated only know about God, much like a philosophical construct of the human mind, whereas initiates (those saved and/or born again) actually have a personal relationship with (internal communion, if you will) with the Creator of the universe.

Western Christianity seemed to lean towards a Creation/Fall/Redemption paradigm.

Eastern Christianity placed less significance on a Fall, and had more of a Creation/Awareness/Decision paradigm.

A Western Christian such as yourself may argue that humans are incapable of the ability to even decide proper behavior without a Redeemer. (or the action/decision of redemption.)

Eastern Christians may argue that humans are now aware and have the decision to accept the responsibility of a life dedicated to serving others.

I have a question for you, Ian. Were God taken out of the equation, what would people even have as far as Belief goes? Whom would we believe in?> Ourselves? Humanity? Would it work?


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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 189 (630942)
08-29-2011 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Phat
08-29-2011 1:02 PM


Re: The Evil 1.
Every hero needs a villain, though.

God doesn't need anything.

If we had no global villain to blame the behavioral imperfections of humanity on, it would force us to look smack dab at ourselves and at our inclinations to justify greed, lust, envy, and all the rest of those deadly sins that we do.

Or to God, shemself.... "Its not our fault, that's just the way God made us."


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iano
Member (Idle past 931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 23 of 189 (630946)
08-29-2011 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Stile
08-29-2011 1:19 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
Stile writes:

quote:
Spoken like a man who has not experienced the kind of "fucking off" that is forced on so many innocent's in this world.

There are various ways to measure an perfect world. The one I find myself admiring is the one which utilises all the good and all the evil - and the apparently unbalanced way in which both are doled out - to produce a situation where every single person ever born gets an equal chance at eternal life.

quote:
If God exists, I just hope He's not omnipotent. Otherwise He does not deserve anything better than a punch in the nose. An omnipotent God does not deserve to ask for patience if He is so morally void as to have created conditions that allow for some of the things that go on in this world.

If the evil that is within this world is required in order for free-will to exist... then a worthy God would never allow this world to come into being in the first place.


Since it's the freewill that generates the evil (and the good you don't mention), a restriction in freewill would indeed temper the extent of evil doing. Would you prefer that, to have a dampened down freewill, capable neither of good nor evil. Not capable of shaking it's fist at it's creator?

Edited by iano, : No reason given.


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Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 24 of 189 (630947)
08-29-2011 2:22 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
08-29-2011 2:16 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
iano writes:

Since it's the freewill that generates the evil (and the good you don't mention), a restriction in freewill would indeed temper the extent of evil doing. Would you prefer that, to have a dampened down freewill, capable neither of good nor evil. Not capable of shaking it's fist at it's creator?

Of course.

A world with no free will is exceedingly morally above a world such as the one we live in.

I don't think you get it... the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good. If this is the way the world must be... any capable worthy or just judge would not create this world in the first place.

Edited by Stile, : Changed "allow this world to exist" to "create this world in the first place" so as to re-emphasize the context of this discussion.


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iano
Member (Idle past 931 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 25 of 189 (630953)
08-29-2011 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Stile
08-29-2011 2:22 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
quote:
Of course. A world with no free will is exceedingly morally above a world such as the one we live in.

Without freewill there are no morals to speak of.

quote:
I don't think you get it... the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good.

Source?

quote:
If this is the way the world must be... any capable worthy or just judge would not create this world in the first place.

Freewill of the highest order will have the potential to produce evil of the highest order, true.

But since that which is on offer is for us to completely merge with the godhead (or be completely demerged from it), I don't really see how the offer can be extended to amoeba.

The highest stakes call for the very highest grade of free will. For better or worse.


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 Message 26 by Stile, posted 08-29-2011 3:11 PM iano has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4042
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 26 of 189 (630956)
08-29-2011 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by iano
08-29-2011 2:50 PM


Re: This is not my idea.
iano writes:

Without freewill there are no morals to speak of.

God doesn't have morals?

iano writes:

Stile writes:

I don't think you get it... the good that exists in this world doesn't balance out the evil. The evil that exists grossly out proportions the good.

Source?

Best answered with another question:
How many innocent lives do you think should be tortuously ruined beyond imagination, just so you can freely choose chocolate ice-cream for dessert?

Freewill of the highest order will have the potential to produce evil of the highest order, true.

But since that which is on offer is for us to completely merge with the godhead (or be completely demerged from it), I don't really see how the offer can be extended to amoeba.

The highest stakes call for the very highest grade of free will. For better or worse.

Agreed. And it is, obviously, for far, far worse. So bad, that it would take a derranged lunatic to create such a world in the first place.

Again, how many women would you allow to be raped so that you can have "free will of the highest order?"
If your answer is greater than zero... I don't see how you can claim any sort of moral highground.
That isn't even the worst of what goes on in this world...

The point isn't that free-will has a consequence of evil... I agree with you.
The point is that the evil that exists in this world simply isn't worth the free-will that provides it.

If you think it is, please, let me know:

How many innocent children need to die by torture, without knowing what love is, just so that you can have "free will of the highest order?"
How many are worth it for you?

Do we really have to ask these questions?

It's pretty obvious that the free-will available just doesn't balance with the amount of evil present. Therefore... if a God actually set this up, then that God isn't worthy and deserves a punch in the nose (to say the least).


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Larni
Member
Posts: 3999
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 27 of 189 (630960)
08-29-2011 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Phat
08-29-2011 12:48 PM


Re: This is my idea.
I disagree. Some evidence is required for faith.

How could one have faith in something one has never heard of?

We must assume we can trust our senses else we may as well give up any enquiry as we never be confident that what we know is accurate.


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jar
Member
Posts: 33415
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 28 of 189 (630962)
08-29-2011 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Larni
08-29-2011 3:41 PM


Re: This is my idea.
But the evidence need only be sufficient to convince the individual.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 27 by Larni, posted 08-29-2011 3:41 PM Larni has responded

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 29 of 189 (630963)
08-29-2011 4:01 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Larni
08-29-2011 11:59 AM


The nature of gods
As an aside the psychologist in me does wonder about the need for certainty biblical literalists seem to have about the nature of their god.

It has always astounded me how child-like our gods are. Why should a Universal deity insist on being worshipped? Why should it be vengeful or jealous? Why would it have any ego at all? Does the ego not arise from comparing oneself to one’s peers?


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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 85 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


Message 30 of 189 (630964)
08-29-2011 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
08-29-2011 12:58 PM


Re: The Evil One
If I am imagining a God, and that God doesnt stack up to the ways that I was taught that such a God should be, what am I to make of it?

The creation or imagining of god is our projection of utopia. The embodiment of hope and desire for perfection. You should disregard the projections of others and go with your gut.

If there is a god and he made some laws then those laws can not be broken. They are (edit; would be) the laws of nature. The gods of old are the first hazy attempt to understand those laws. Science today is the heartfelt and honest pursuit of understanding those laws.

Does it make any sense, at all, that an eternal creator would require a book to manifest itself in the world?

Edited by Dogmafood, : correct teh historical record.


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