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Author Topic:   Prophecy vs Free will
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 151 of 168 (630889)
08-28-2011 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 148 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 10:09 PM


quote:
The prophesy was a success. Please if you dare, show mw how this is any different than the one concerning Israels return
Harbouring such false insanities has a cost factor. Your so-called prophesy that a church will stand in Jerusalem and Christianity spread large, which is a vile disregard of its criminal flouting of other peoples' rights and land, did not come true: the church was burnt down by Muslims and a huge mosque dumped on it. The Jews returned to their land. Europe is becoming Eurostan. Those who erected a Mosque have their regime states in shambles.
Most of all, you cannot prove that writings was made prior to the 4th Century. You have not a shred of dead sea Gospel scrolls.
WALK HUMBLY BEFORE YOUR GOD.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 10:09 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 10:40 PM IamJoseph has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 152 of 168 (630890)
08-28-2011 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 10:12 PM


Re: Respond to what is actually written
Well, the Christian Church is certainly not any prophecy made by Jesus.
It is the creation of Paul.
But if you wish to pick a specific prophecy then list the chapter and verse and we will take a look at it and see if it can be supported.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 10:12 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-29-2011 10:09 PM jar has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 153 of 168 (630891)
08-28-2011 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 9:54 PM


Re: Resond to what is actually written
quote:
I dont need another thread, all I need is half a brain and a set of eyes to see the Church he predicted, flourishing just as he promised
Nazism also flourished in Europe. The greater the followers of evil - the greater the evil looms.
"YOU SHALL NOT FOLLOW A CORRUPTED MULTITUDE" [Book of Exodus].

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 9:54 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 154 of 168 (630892)
08-28-2011 10:27 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by IamJoseph
08-28-2011 10:14 PM


Re: Do you really know as little as it seems?
Again, word salad doesn't tell us much.
The Jews return happened in 538 BCE.
There were no popes in 538 BCE.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:14 PM IamJoseph has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 155 of 168 (630893)
08-28-2011 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by IamJoseph
08-28-2011 10:22 PM


Harbouring such false insanities has a cost factor. Your so-called prophesy that a church will stand in Jerusalem and Christianity spread large
Your confusing a building with people. the people are the body of Christ the Chruch. they met in caves and houses intially. Still the body of Christ
As for your last claim here its not even worth the time you took to type it. Open your eyes
what is my cost factor?
Most of all, you cannot prove that writings was made prior to the 4th Century. You have not a shred of dead sea Gospel scrolls.
Scolarship is a many spendored thing, isnt it? Just because a liberal scholar dates a document after the fact or at a latter date does not mean he is correct
You dont really believe you have better evidence for your originals than does the NT, do you? the dead sea scrolls are still removed 1000 years from any orginals, correct?
thats a great deal larger than 100 to 200 years.
The earliest Christian writes reference or cite those passages i the NT, nearly to completion
Dawn Bertot
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:22 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by IamJoseph, posted 08-28-2011 10:45 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 156 of 168 (630894)
08-28-2011 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Dawn Bertot
08-28-2011 10:40 PM


Iys just as impossibe to talk to a fundy Christian as with a Muslim denying history by shouting statements born of bad beliefs.
You have to prove your charges, you have to prove your prophesies. You cannot. The truth does not set free those who chant death and call it a saving, nor to those who boast of such bad beliefs they've been poisoned with. look closely what is going on in the Islamic world - you may see yourself there too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Dawn Bertot, posted 08-28-2011 10:40 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 157 of 168 (631004)
08-29-2011 8:39 PM


PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
Israel Celebrates Diplomatic Victory over Roman Empire.
quote:
Samaria Celebrates Diplomatic Victory over Roman Empire
A huge Lag B’Omer bonfire in the heart of the Shomron recalls Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai’s diplomatic victory over the Roman Empire.”
by Tzvi Ben Gedalyahu
First Publish: 5/22/2011, 7:52 AM / Last Update: 5/22/2011, 8:28 AM
Israel news photo: Flash 90
A huge Saturday night Lag B’Omer bonfire in the heart of Samaria (Shomron) recalls Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai’s diplomatic victory over the Roman Empire, said Shomron Regional Council head, Gershon Mesika.
Rabbi Shimon, the 2nd century mystic and sage, who died on Lag Ba'Omer, is known by the acronym, Rashbi.
The Talmud relates that the Rashbi said of the Romans, "Everything they built, they built for themselves: They built market places in order to place prostitutes there; bathhouses, in order to refresh themselves; bridges, in order to collect taxes." Rashbi was forced into hiding in a cave for 12 years after the Roman Empire heard of his statement and issued a death warrant against him.
Mesika said, Lag B’Omer, the holiday for the Rashbi, is the celebration that shows our pride. Rabbi Shimon ben Yochai stood against the Roman Empire and won. The fact that hundreds of Jews are celebrating Lag B’Omer here, when almost no one even remembers the Roman Empire, is the victory of Rashbi and of the People of Israel.
"Today, we stand and will continue to stand strongly for the Torah and building of our land in the face of all challenges."
Why not put the prophesy joke to rest now - seeing the case is won by a margin of manifest blatancy?
The Roman Empire was the greatest super power in history. A small privince alone challenegd them - and won. In 1950, Britain and Jordan changed the historical name of Samaria to West Bank, a continuing genocide aspiration of Jews and history, inverting the premise of letting the truth set one free, and the notion of prophey. Europe now wants to change the name of Jerusalem to Al Quds - foresaking even its own theologies if it can hurt Israel.
Following depraved Rome with statues all over Europe and boasting how many were massacred is a problem of the murderers and their worshippers - it is not a Godidit thing - look who was holding the swords! Meanile Britainastan and Eurostan is hapening while Christianity and Islam's Jewish problem continues - they happily cut down their own feet with their own swords.
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 12:07 AM IamJoseph has replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


(2)
Message 158 of 168 (631020)
08-29-2011 10:09 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by jar
08-28-2011 10:26 PM


Re: Respond to what is actually written
Well, the Christian Church is certainly not any prophecy made by Jesus.
It is the creation of Paul.
Some of the reasoning abilities of certain individuals at this site never ceases to amaze me.
Let me get htis straight now, You believe Jesus did not establish his church, because possibly the book in which it contains his statement that he would, that particular book is unrelaibale
But you do know Paul invented the Christian Church, How? How do you know anything of what paul did outside of the NT
So in one instance you use the books to your advantage, then decry them in another context. Strange reasoning
At any rate tell me how you know Paul invented the Christian Church and Christ didnt
But if you wish to pick a specific prophecy then list the chapter and verse and we will take a look at it and see if it can be supported.
Certainly. Matt 16. He started with the Apostles and multitude of disciples
"I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it"
here you have a promise of what would take place and foreknowledge that nothing would get in its way.
Guess what it came true just as he stated
Dawn Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by jar, posted 08-28-2011 10:26 PM jar has not replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


(1)
Message 159 of 168 (631026)
08-30-2011 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by IamJoseph
08-29-2011 8:39 PM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
IamJoseph,
How exactly does this article relate to prophesy?
How is the "case won by a margin of manifest blatancy?"
That phrase does not make any sense by the way. I know what you mean but the sentence does not actually make sense. Makeing sense of a lot of what you write is kind of like trying to understand a cryptic crossword clue.
The Roman Empire was the greatest super power in history. A small privince alone challenegd them - and won.
2 guys hid in a cave for 12 years in order to escape a death sentence. It was not a small province, it was 2 people, one a 12 year old boy. They did not challenge the Roman Empire, they hid in a cave from it.
I am not sure why this is considered a great victory or why it is celebrated. Two guys hid in a cave for over a decade. Their only victory was that they won at hide and seek. He could claim victory in that he remained alive I suppose. I would say that they were so insignificant that it was not worth the Empires trouble to chase them down.
Hannibal of Carthage was a challenge to the Roman Empire, the Parthians/Sassanids were a challenge to the Roman Empire, two guys hiding out in cave were not a challenge to the Roman Empire.
In 1950, Britain and Jordan changed the historical name of Samaria to West Bank, a continuing genocide aspiration of Jews and history, inverting the premise of letting the truth set one free, and the notion of prophey.
What is the "continuing genocide" aspirations that you believe that Britain is involved in? And what prophecy does this genocide relate to?
Europe now wants to change the name of Jerusalem to Al Quds - foresaking even its own theologies if it can hurt Israel.
Al Quds is the Arabic name for Jeruselum. You say that Europe wants to change the name? Which countries in Europe? I cannot find any reference to this change. Apart from your claim anyway. Can you provide any evidence that all of the nations in Europe have any desire to change the name of Jeruselum to Al Quds. Can you tell me how any nation, or group of nations would change the name of a major city in another nation?
What prophecy are you talking about? What prophecy do you think has been fullfilled?
Are you actually adding anything to the conversation or just pushing your own agenda wherever you can?
The fact that hundreds of Jews are celebrating Lag B’Omer here, when almost no one even remembers the Roman Empire, is the victory of Rashbi and of the People of Israel.
I think this part is my favourite section of your source. No one even remembers the Roman Empire? Wander out onto the street and ask someone if they have heard of Rashbi, then ask them if they have heard of Julius Caesar. Anyone who uses words with latin roots is using a product of the Roman Empire. Check out a US $1 bill and note the Roman Numerals for the year 1776 (MDCCLXXVI). Check out the White House for a representation of Roman Architecture, there are Roman Aqueducts still in use today, concrete was invented by the Romans, in the recent riots in England, riot police were using the Testudo formation, a formation commonly used by the Roman Legion. It appears that plenty of people remember the Roman Empire. As opposed to the hundreds of Jews who celebrated this 'victory'.
Where exactly were you going with this post in relation to prophecy vs free will?
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by IamJoseph, posted 08-29-2011 8:39 PM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 2:08 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 160 of 168 (631033)
08-30-2011 2:08 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by Butterflytyrant
08-30-2011 12:07 AM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
The one who hid in a cave was pursued by Rome; but it is the entire nation which clallenged depraved Rome - and won. Christianity lost in siding with the wrong side, exposing a bad move and bad doctrines of racism, villification and mass murder, not to mention the desecration of magestic laws introduced to humanity. Attaching the prefix of pagan, depraved 'Roman' to Catholicism was a horrific premise, as if it was a merit!
Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 12:07 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 2:49 AM IamJoseph has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 161 of 168 (631036)
08-30-2011 2:49 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by IamJoseph
08-30-2011 2:08 AM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
IamJoseph,
The one who hid in a cave was pursued by Rome; but it is the entire nation which clallenged depraved Rome - and won. Christianity lost in siding with the wrong side, exposing a bad move and bad doctrines of racism, villification and mass murder, not to mention the desecration of magestic laws introduced to humanity. Attaching the prefix of pagan, depraved 'Roman' to Catholicism was a horrific premise, as if it was a merit!
Was that an attempt at a reply to my post?
The source you presented was not a nation challenging Rome. It was a celebrtion of one guy and his 12 year old son successfully hiding in a cave for 12 years. What nation are you refering to? What 'nation' challenged Rome? By Rome do you mean The Holy Roman Empire, The Roman Empire or Rome the city? What challenge are you talking about specifically? Why do you say that Rome is 'depraved'? Provide a link to what you are talking about. And tell me what prophecy this event fulfilled.
Christianity lost in siding with the wrong side
It seems like you are suggesting that Christianity chose to join up with the Roman Empire. Is this what you are suggesting? What group are you referring to when you say Christianity? Is this some group you percieve has approached the Roman Empire and decided to join them? Which 'side' should they have chosen? Who was the right side in your opinion?
...exposing a bad move and bad doctrines of racism, villification and mass murder, not to mention the desecration of magestic laws introduced to humanity.
What was this bad move? What are the 'bad doctrines of racism, vilification and mass murder'? Are they unique to the group that they chose? What is this desecration of magestic laws you are talking about?
Attaching the prefix of pagan, depraved 'Roman' to Catholicism was a horrific premise, as if it was a merit!
The terms 'Romish Catholic' and 'Roman Catholic', along with 'Popish Catholic' were introduced by the Church of England in the 16th century. The term 'Roman Catholic Church' is a recent addition which the church itself rarely uses. (source : The resource cannot be found.). So what is your point? Why is do you use the word 'pagan' as if it is a negative thing? Why were they 'depraved'
Why do you suggest that Romans adding the word Roman to the business of Catholic issues occuring in Rome is a 'horrific premise'?
You can have another go at replying to my post instead of ranting random crap unrelated to the topic if you want.
You seem to think you have something valid to say about prophecy when you went down this road.
What is it that you have to say about the topic?
Are you suggesting that
Edited by Butterflytyrant, : No reason given.

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 2:08 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 2:55 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 162 of 168 (631037)
08-30-2011 2:55 AM
Reply to: Message 161 by Butterflytyrant
08-30-2011 2:49 AM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
That holy sage represents the war of Rome with Judea. But you have more immediate issues to deal with if you want to assist Christianity. It looks like a 'reverse-prophesy' what is occuring and coming soon to a theatre near you. Islam is emulating medevial Europe:
quote:
TRAIL OF TERROR
'Exterminate Christians, close pyramids, Sphinx'
Rising leader in Egypt has astonishing plans
August 29, 2011
8:43 pm Eastern
By Bob Unruh
2011 WND
U.S. jets over pyramids
A rising leader in the radical Islamic movement in Egypt that has become a major political player since the demise of Hosni Mubarak's regime says Christian churches may need to be blown up and Christians exterminated to allow the advance of Islamic law, or Shariah.
The comments come from Sheik 'Adel Shehato, a senior leader with the Egyptian Islamic Jihad terrorist group. The sheik was jailed in 1991 because of his positions but was released earlier this year in the revolution that removed Mubarak from power.
His interview with the Egyptian daily Roz Al-Yousef was translated by the Middle East Media Research Institute.
What's up with Islam? Read "Everlasting Hatred: The Roots of Jihad" and find out
The sheik, a senior jihadist leader, responded to a question about using violence against Christians, who make up a substantial minority in Egypt.
"Are you against blowing up churches?" the newspaper interviewer asked Shehato.
(Story continues below)
"Yes and no," he replied. "The Christian is free to worship his God in his church, but if the Christians make problems for the Muslims, I will exterminate them. I am guided by the Shariah, and it stipulates that they must pay the jizya tax while in a state of humiliation."
"These positions of yours frighten us, as Egyptians," the interviewer said.
"I will not act [in ways] that contradict my faith just in order to please the people. ... We say to the Christians, convert to Islam or pay the jizya, otherwise we will fight you. The Shariah is not based on logic but on divine law. That is why we oppose universal, manmade constitutions."
MEMRI, which was founded in 1998 to monitor Middle East media, is an independent, nonpartisan nonprofit group that has offices in Washington, London, Rome, Jerusalem, Baghdad, Shanghai and Tokyo.
Advisers include winners of Nobels, the President Medal of Freedom and the U.S. Congress Gold Medal, such as Elie Wiesel, James Woolsey, John Bolton, John Ashcroft, William Bennett, Paul Bremer, Alan Dershowitz and Edgar Bronfman.
Among the many assertions made by the senior Islamic leader was that the Egyptian pyramids need to be closed down to tourists.
"There will be tourism for purposes of [medical] treatment, but the tourism sites of the pyramids, the Sphinx, and Sharm Al-Sheikh will be shut down, because my task is to get people to serve Allah rather than people. No proud Muslim will ever be willing to live off tourism profits, because the tourists come to drink alcohol and fornicate. [If they] want to come, they must comply with the conditions and laws of Islam. We will explain to them that, according to the Shariah, the pyramids are [from] a pagan and polytheistic age."
He continued with a description of the new state of arts and culture in Egypt, should he be in power.
"In Islam, there is no such thing as art. Painting, singing, and dancing are forbidden. Therefore, in the state there will be nothing but Islamic culture, for I cannot teach the infidel culture. We will return to the decent culture of the Muslims and the Muslim forefathers, and to Islamic history," he said.
The far-reaching interview included his plans for worldwide government.
"As Muslims, we must believe that the Quran is our constitution, and that it is impossible for us to institute a Western democratic regime," he said. "I oppose democracy because it is not the faith of the Muslims. According to Islam, it is forbidden for people to rule and to legislate laws, as Allah alone is ruler. Allah did not hand down the term [democracy] as a form of rule, and it is completely absent from the Arab and Islamic lexicon."
He said, "Once Allah's law is instated (sic), the role of the people will end and Allah will reign supreme."
A leader like himself would have no need to know what people want, he said.
"There is no consultation [by government leaders] with commoners, such as workers and fellahin, nor is there consultation over issues that contravene the Shariah," he said.
Muslims such as Mubarak who led Islamic nations but without strict adherence to Shariah were apostate, he warned.
"They are apostate infidels, as opposed to infidels like the Jews and Christians, and anyone who doubts that they are infidels is an infidel," he said.
Especially, he warned, Muslims must be wary of Christians and cannot be friends.
"I must support the Muslim and oppose the Christian," he said. "If there is a Christian who does me no harm, I will maintain limited contact with him. Islam [discusses] certain degrees of contact with the Christian, namely: keeping promises, dealing honestly with him, treating him kindly, and befriending him. The first three are allowed, but the fourth is deemed dangerous, for it contravenes the verse that says, 'O you who believe! Do not take my enemy and your enemy for friends"
A worldwide Islamic kingdom, he explained, is a given.
"Of course we will launch a campaign of Islamic conquest throughout the world. As soon as the Muslim and Islam control Egypt and implement the Sharia, we will turn to the neighboring regions, Libya and Sudan to the south. All the Muslims in the world who wish to see the Shariah implemented worldwide will join the Egyptian army in order to form Islamic battalions, whose task will be to bring about the victory
He said international relations will be simple.
"There are Muslims and there are infidels. We will have ambassadors in every country. We want to call all other countries to join Islam, and that will be the task of the ambassadors. If [they] refuse, there will be war," he said.
Read more: 'Exterminate Christians, close pyramids, Sphinx' 'Exterminate Christians, close pyramids, Sphinx'

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 2:49 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 4:32 AM IamJoseph has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 163 of 168 (631050)
08-30-2011 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 162 by IamJoseph
08-30-2011 2:55 AM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
IamJoseph,
But you have more immediate issues to deal with if you want to assist Christianity.
I have no desire to assist Christianity. I believe the world would be a better place without the the big monotheistic religions.
It looks like a 'reverse-prophesy' what is occuring and coming soon to a theatre near you.
What the hell is a reverse prophecy?

I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 2:55 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 4:50 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3668 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 164 of 168 (631054)
08-30-2011 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Butterflytyrant
08-30-2011 4:32 AM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
There's only one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 4:32 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Butterflytyrant, posted 08-30-2011 4:59 AM IamJoseph has replied

Butterflytyrant
Member (Idle past 4422 days)
Posts: 415
From: Australia
Joined: 06-28-2011


Message 165 of 168 (631055)
08-30-2011 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by IamJoseph
08-30-2011 4:50 AM


Re: PROPHESY? WHAT PROPHESY!?
There's only one.
Highlander?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 4:50 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by IamJoseph, posted 08-30-2011 5:33 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

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