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Author | Topic: The problems of big bang theory. What are they? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3968 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
I suspect it is the contents and not the shape of what I am saying you are so uncomfortable with. I am sure you would be still less happy with my meaning if I wrote the post in the style of Hemingway.
Anyway, the gist of it was that the expert is very happy with the blind acceptance of his expertise by the layman, the expert would never say: "I am likely be totally wrong and if the layman believes that I know better than he does that is all down to his ignorance. The expert would never admit: if the layman studied physics and mathematics as long as I did, he would have easily seen all the blunders in my reasoning I fail to notice". Still hard to decipher?
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4422 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
Hello AM,
Well, not at all. He makes a good point about singularities being a pure mathematical fancy and not possible physically in any way, shape or form and that point is common to many a thinker, Albert Einstein included.His way of expression is different from any one else not the content of his idea. Well, not at all. Which part of my post does this refer to?
He makes a good point about singularities being a pure mathematical fancy and not possible physically in any way, shape or form He believes that the Big Bang occured. He does not think that singularities are mathematical fancy or not possible. He believes that the Big Bang occured. He believes that God was the force that started the Big Bang. He believes that the Big Bang is what is described in the Genesis creation narrative. He continues to tell everyone how scientifically accurate Genesis is because he belives that it fits with the Big Bang Theory. He believes that the phrase 'let there be light' is the first explosion from the singularity. He believes that God started it off by interacting with the singularity in some way and starting the Big Bang. Here are some quotes (sorry that some of it sounds like rambling bullshit but that is pretty common in IMJ's posts) -
That starts at a later point than I referred to. I referred to the expansion/bang of a singular first entity. Here, one cannot say 'energy build-up' [fusion] was a factor, as this would contradict the BB's initiation as a first point. IMHO, it must be a program which allows the expansion and thereby subsequent fusion: pineapples do not perform the same feat because they are embedded with a different program. All of science rests on this premise. That is from Message 110 One point of knowledge is that the universe could not have been initiated with a singular, indivisible, irreducible entity: it takes two to tango applies. This premise is from Genesis This is also from Message 110. The 'two to tango' he is babbling about is the singularity and God
The universe could not have emerged with a singular, irreducible, indivisible entity. here had to be more than one entity, and each compinent had to be embedded with a program directive. Now replace the term 'SAID' as 'embedded with a program directive'? from Message 115 If the BBT states a single/singular/singularity 'expanded' - it is clearly incorrect: there was yet nowhere to expand to, nor any reason or cause to make this happen, nor was there energy to cause a bang, nor the law that allows it to go bang. Its a hedy subject and well beyond today's fresh faced scientists. Genesis is dealing with the most hedy subject of all. It is surprising that the BBT anomaly was not rejected on the basis of the equation provided in Genesis! Boggle-boggle! from Message 304 His point is that the start of the universe, from the singularity, needed God to begin. The Big Bang was started by God. That kind of deflates your post.
singularities being a pure mathematical fancy and not possible physically in any way, shape or form and that point is common to many a thinker, Albert Einstein included. common to many a thinker apart from the physicists who know what they are talking about. The physicists who are currently researching singularities. Can you supply the source that shows Einstein saying he thought that singularities were pure mathematical fancy and not possible physically in any way, shape or form? You make it sound live every average Joe has an opinion on singularities. Like you continually hear people on the bus at at the coffe shop talking about how ridiculous the idea of singularities are. How many people do you think actually understand the theories enough to actually have a valid opinion? Do you think IamJoseph is coherent enough to value his opinion? Do you really belive, from reading his posts, that he knows enough about singularities to make any good points about them? To hammer my point home, check this out from Message 304 my comment - Can I take this as your admission that your whole argument for God rests on the fact that you think that a singularity is a single inanimate object that, in order to do anything, needs another force (your god conveniently) to 'tango'. And you have established this because the word singular is in the word singularity. your reply - Yes you can. There are no alternatives. In fact take this on board also: a singularity or a perfect 'ONE' cannot and does not exist in the universe; this is the meaning of the Hebrew equation, THE LORD IS ONE - a mode of phrasing Monotheism for all generation's understanding. Sublime literary genius, no?. Just take a look at his reply. He first agrees with the part about the singularity being acted upon by god to start the Big Bang. Then he says they dont exist. And he says they dont exist in this universe even though the singularity we are talking about is not in this universe. It created this universe. This is the guy you think has a good point regarding singularities. I would suggest Stephen Hawking myself. But you get your education from whoever you feel is best. (Or whoever best supports you particular beliefs regardless of how stupid or wrong they seem)
His way of expression is different from any one else not the content of his idea. I would say different is an understatement. I would suggest he is intentionally and willfully ignorant, incomprehensible and a raving fool. You think his content is not different. Find me another source that supports his idea that the Big Bang as described by current scientific theory, matches the description of Genesis in the Old Testament exactly and that God started it all off. Good luck. I was hoping that he was just using old books with old terminology. Some of my dads old reference books have old terms not really used anymore. It was a stab in the dark but I had to give it a shot. I believe that no other sources that even resembles any of his ravings exists because he is some random old guy, sitting in his basement (probably naked) screaming at his computer as he types whatever crazy shit that comes into his head. I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot "Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3644 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined:
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if the layman studied physics and mathematics as long as I did, he would have easily seen all the blunders in my reasoning I fail to notice a layman once did study physics and mathematics for precisely as long as I did, and he saw many blunders, made many of his own, and became an expert of the field. That is what happens to those laymen who put in the necessary work, rather than the laymen that sit in their armchairs, oblivious to their own extreme ignorance, and pontificate to any who will listen to their drivel.
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Butterflytyrant Member (Idle past 4422 days) Posts: 415 From: Australia Joined: |
Hey Percy,
It probably does not help that I am currently studying at university and help out as a tutor. I am surrounded by people explaining things and am teaching people myself. When you cant explain something so simple to someone, then it reflects badly on the teacher. Not the student. I dont get a lot of exposure to people who cannot or will not learn. I suppose I will just give up on IamJoseph. I will wait for one more reponse before giving up on Dawn Bertot as well. I set something out so simply that I think he may get it. Here hoping.I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot "Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined:
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Alfred Maddenstein writes: Hey, you called me (a geologist) simple-minded. Speak for yourself. I’m not. I know a lot about my speciality. I was appointed to do a job as an expert on that subject. I'm doing rather well, too. Unfortunately in spite of the intrinsic impossibility of those complicated matters being explained in a way to make sense to the commoners by the caste of those well qualified, it is those simple-minded janitors, engineers, geologists and philosophers on whose faith in the correctness of the explanations offered by the elite of mathemagicians, the very upkeep and existence of the mathemagicians entirely depends. I'm not simple-minded enough to tell all those experts on the subjects of physics, maths, cosmology, etc. that they all are wrong. I don't know enough about those subjects to do it. That's not simple-mindedness, it's facing reality.Dogmafood writes: Exactly. The experts do have a more relevant opinion than people who only pretend to be experts when talking to complete novices on that subject.
Fortunately, we are moving toward a time when the truth is not dependant on it's popularity or ease of comprehension. There is plenty of nutritional value in a steak but not if you are a herbavore.
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3968 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
Unfortunately it is not any ease of comprehension I am talking about. I am talking about making any sense whatsoever which is what is sadly lacking in the consensus hypothesis defended here.
Not being patently absurd and hiding the fact behind the equations like the priests hide behind the intricacies of the biblical text claiming an immunity to logical scrutiny . Equations describe only what quantity of which quality is in which relation to what quantity of another quality. Qualities are nicely expressed with words, I am afraid, so that all can see whether the qualities described by equations are physically possible or are magical and just alleged to exist.
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Pressie Member Posts: 2103 From: Pretoria, SA Joined: |
Alfred Maddenstein writes: I don’t know. Haven’t figured out what you were trying to say yet. I suspect it is the contents and not the shape of what I am saying you are so uncomfortable with. Alfred Maddenstein writes: I don’t know. What was the style of Hemingway (remember, I’m not a native English speaker. Never read a Hemingway book in my life)? Ever heard of N.P. van Wyk Louw? Now that’s the best writer, ever! I am sure you would be still less happy with my meaning if I wrote the post in the style of Hemingway. Alfred Maddenstein writes: That sounds very much like religion. Never experienced that when I was studying. Anyway, the gist of it was that the expert is very happy with the blind acceptance of his expertise by the layman,..Alfred Maddenstein writes: The expert would say, I could be wrong, what do you think? The expert would even give reasons why he or she might be wrong. the expert would never say: "I am likely be totally wrong.. Alfred Maddenstein writes: This doesn’t make sense. I’ve mentored quite a few students, not laymen, and some of their ideas were actually way better than mine. I accepted those ideas. I know more now. and if the layman believes that I know better than he does that is all down to his ignorance. Alfred Maddenstein writes: The layman is welcome to do it. There’s lots of Universities all around the world where they can do exactly that. The only problem then is: when they study physics and maths, they still don't become experts on geology, chemistry, cosmology, etc. The expert would never admit: if the layman studied physics and mathematics as long as I did, he would have easily seen all the blunders in my reasoning I fail to notice".Alfred Maddenstein writes: Yes, you still don’t make sense at all. Still hard to decipher? Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.
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Alfred Maddenstein Member (Idle past 3968 days) Posts: 565 Joined: |
No, it was yourself who made the list of those who must shut up and swallow whatever claim the cosmologists care to make. Geologists were on that list and I just picked them up from there together with the janitors and philosophers.
Edited by Alfred Maddenstein, : grammar
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
Pressie writes: Please note that from your quote he said :I would like to reject it .. What did he say afterwards in that same sentence? It's fairly hard to find a complete quote with a general search because of the pervasive number of creationist sites that want to make much out of little. Is it really all that important what scientists said about some theory 70 years ago? Do we take Louis Pasteur's detractors all that seriously now? But perhaps creationists are not completely to blame for the Morrison quote. The half quote apparently appears in this form in Robert Jastrow's book God and the Astronomers, which book actually describes cosmologists coming to accept the big bang theory despite their initial reluctance. Apparently, some creationists consider BBT to be bad news for atheists because it suggest that the universe has a beginning. As a result, there is endless discussion of Jastrow's book on creationist web pages. What is the most likely way a sentence, "I would like to reject it..." might end. You can almost hear the "but" without even seeing the complete quote. Well most of us would anticipate such. No, I'm not going to do Portillo's homework or steal Pressie's thunder. Even more amusing is the Eddington quote. Eddington as quoted in From Philosophy and the Physicists: By L. Susan Stebbing.
quote: Yeah, there is that "but" that completely changes the sense of the quote.
Pressie writes: Portillo writes: Robert Jastrow said "it was distasteful to the scientific mind." Oh, did he? Any reference to this? Can’t find it anywhere except in creationist web pages who all refer to each other. Actually, I can believe that Jastrow did say that. It would be perfectly in keeping with the theme of his book, which was that physicists had an initial emotion based dislike for the idea of a universe with an ultimate beginning. But that initial reaction just isn't the big deal Portillio makes of it. We can find physicists saying similar things about quantum mechanics, and even worse things about special and general relativity back in the early part of twentieth century. So what?
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
I don't get a lot of exposure to people who cannot or will not learn. I feel your pain.
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
it is those simple-minded janitors, engineers, geologists and philosophers on whose faith in the correctness of the explanations offered by the elite of mathemagicians, the very upkeep and existence of the mathemagicians entirely depends. Really? Does the general public have any significant say in which cosmological inquiries get funded and who gets telescope time? I find the idea that the public has any significant input rather difficult to believe. Because surely there'd be more stink about how the money is being spent. I understand that the general purse strings are under public control at universities, but I expect that the scientist who get results and bring credit to their university (credit among peers) are the ones who get the money.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 349 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I think is meant for Alfred at msg 327.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 349 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
Not being patently absurd and hiding the fact behind the equations like the priests hide behind the intricacies of the biblical text claiming an immunity to logical scrutiny . The real conspiracy of the priests taking advantage of the ignorance of their audience was eventually exposed when the audience learned how to read. The priests actively and obviously tried to suppress any dissension or discussion. Your imagined conspiracy of physicists has withstood decades of scrutiny from the world’s greatest minds. Your conspiring physicists are actively teaching what they know and seeking criticism. Their motivation is to know the truth. A far greater reward than some paltry wage. Your argument is entirely cynical and requires an absurd conspiracy.
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Dogmafood Member (Idle past 349 days) Posts: 1815 From: Ontario Canada Joined: |
I found this on Michio Kaku's site.
Einstein also said that behind every great theory there is a simple physical picture that even lay people can understand. In fact, he said, if a theory does not have a simple underlying picture, then the theory is probably worthless. The important thing is the physical picture; math is nothing but bookkeeping. Did Einsein actually say something like this and would the readers here agree with it?
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cavediver Member (Idle past 3644 days) Posts: 4129 From: UK Joined: |
Did Einsein actually say something like this and would the readers here agree with it? I can't find it - and no,I don't really agree with it. If Einstein did say it, it sounds very muc like from his Special Relativity era - it is not an opinion he would likely have had around General Relativity. This somewhat contradictory quote by Albert is one that I can certainly stand by:
quote: Edited by cavediver, : No reason given.
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