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Author Topic:   The Origin of God
Psyiko
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 41 (61996)
10-21-2003 7:53 PM


How did God come into existence?
i just want other people's ideas on this.. i dont really have one, cuz i dont particularly believe in one.

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by IrishRockhound, posted 10-22-2003 10:01 AM Psyiko has not replied
 Message 3 by balyons, posted 10-22-2003 4:43 PM Psyiko has not replied

IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 2 of 41 (62111)
10-22-2003 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Psyiko
10-21-2003 7:53 PM


That's a debate with no end if I ever say one... I assume that for the purposes of this thread we consider a god to exist? Does it have to be the Christian god?
------------------
"They say there's a heaven for those who wait,
Some say it's better but I say it ain't,
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints,
The sinners have much more fun."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Psyiko, posted 10-21-2003 7:53 PM Psyiko has not replied

balyons
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 41 (62186)
10-22-2003 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Psyiko
10-21-2003 7:53 PM


Anyone that believes in God believes that He has no beginning. This is a theological argument with a Biblical basis that He is outside of time and therefore not subject to beginnings and ends. However, obviously the first step in understanding this argument is accepting that there is indeed a God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Psyiko, posted 10-21-2003 7:53 PM Psyiko has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Rei, posted 10-22-2003 4:45 PM balyons has not replied
 Message 5 by sidelined, posted 10-23-2003 1:21 AM balyons has not replied
 Message 6 by IrishRockhound, posted 10-23-2003 8:00 AM balyons has not replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 4 of 41 (62187)
10-22-2003 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by balyons
10-22-2003 4:43 PM


If God is outside time, then all decisions have already been made. In which case, there is no Free Will, because there is predestination.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by balyons, posted 10-22-2003 4:43 PM balyons has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 5 of 41 (62266)
10-23-2003 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by balyons
10-22-2003 4:43 PM


Hey balyons.
If God had no beginning why then does he disagree with you.
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."
Sounds pretty straight forward to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by balyons, posted 10-22-2003 4:43 PM balyons has not replied

IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4436 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 6 of 41 (62311)
10-23-2003 8:00 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by balyons
10-22-2003 4:43 PM


quote:
Anyone that believes in God believes that He has no beginning. This is a theological argument with a Biblical basis that He is outside of time and therefore not subject to beginnings and ends. However, obviously the first step in understanding this argument is accepting that there is indeed a God.
This statement needs some amendment - "Anyone that believes in the Christian God believes that he has no beginning..."
If I believe in a completely different god, can I still post in this argument? After all, no one has specified that it has to be the Christian one.
I think there's no way to know, mostly because I like the whole "Cosmic Programmer" scenario, and that would involve a god outside of the lifetime of this universe.
The Rock Hound
------------------
"They say there's a heaven for those who wait,
Some say it's better but I say it ain't,
I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints,
The sinners have much more fun."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by balyons, posted 10-22-2003 4:43 PM balyons has not replied

Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 41 (62363)
10-23-2003 12:46 PM


Traditionally it has been held that God is outside of time. Hence, he didn't come from anywhere. However, this rules out God as a creator, since something timeless cannot do anything, by definition. It's just like arguing that God can make a circle square.

Thanos6
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 41 (63175)
10-28-2003 8:28 PM


Or He does everything at 'once.'

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-28-2003 10:31 PM Thanos6 has not replied

Ex_Nihilo
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 41 (63200)
10-28-2003 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Thanos6
10-28-2003 8:28 PM


Thanos6:
___________
Or He does everything at 'once.'
____________
Exactly! For God to be transcendant of space-time, he doesn't "do" anything. Or we could probably say that He does things at infinite speed. From His vantage point transcending space-time, everything is already done. Instead of being bound to a state of doing, as we "universelings" or "space-timers" are, God is in a state of BEING. God just IS. Hence His name (who He really is), as revealed to Moses in the burning bush: "I AM."
As to being "Alpha and Omega," the beginning and the end, ...
Imagine a timeline as being represented by a pencil line on a paper. Well, the paper (if it was infinite and there was no space-time above it) would represent God. It is the beginning and the end of the time line ... and more ...
[This message has been edited by Ex_Nihilo, 10-28-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Rei, posted 10-29-2003 12:27 AM Ex_Nihilo has replied
 Message 14 by Beercules, posted 10-29-2003 6:43 PM Ex_Nihilo has not replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 10 of 41 (63231)
10-29-2003 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Ex_Nihilo
10-28-2003 10:31 PM


If God is independent of time as we know it, then, as you properly concluded, everything is already decided (at least in our timeline). If everything is predetermined, how can anyone have free will?
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-28-2003 10:31 PM Ex_Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-29-2003 1:25 PM Rei has replied

Ex_Nihilo
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 41 (63320)
10-29-2003 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Rei
10-29-2003 12:27 AM


It's not that God has decided what we will or will not do. It's just that being transcendant of time, instead of just seeing what we will do in the future from a time before that point in the future, He actually is in the future, watching us make certain decisions.
Just because you know that "bob" is going to rob a bank at one oclock, because you can see it happening through the wormhole in your basement, does that mean that "bob" doesn't have free will? NO! When it comes to time being described as a block, free will has NOT BEEN REMOVED, it HAS only BEEN REVEALED. A being that is transcendant of time can see, at the same time, every moment of every decision we have, are, and will be making. But the key phrase here is still valid -- "every DECISION we have, are, and will be making." To make a decision, one must have free will ... no?
"God has no history. He is to completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of your reality (because it has already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is still in the future):"
-- C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Rei, posted 10-29-2003 12:27 AM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by sidelined, posted 10-29-2003 2:27 PM Ex_Nihilo has replied
 Message 15 by Rei, posted 10-29-2003 6:59 PM Ex_Nihilo has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 12 of 41 (63331)
10-29-2003 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Ex_Nihilo
10-29-2003 1:25 PM


Ex_Nihilo
I have often seen this information and not had it proprly explained.
#1 How do you postulate that God is outside of time-Transcedant as you say?
#2How does a God view a creation he exists outside of?
#3How does he see without sense organs?
At the end of your post you have a quote.
"God has no history. He is to completely and utterly real to have one. For, of course, to have a history means losing part of your reality (because it has already slipped away into the past) and not yet having another part (because it is still in the future):"
-- C.S. Lewis
Again, how does Mr.Lewis know what he purports here? "God is too completely and utterly real to have one." On what basis does he make this claim?
"Men guard nothing with less difficulty than their tongues,and can moderate their desires more than their words."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-29-2003 1:25 PM Ex_Nihilo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-29-2003 3:27 PM sidelined has not replied

Ex_Nihilo
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 41 (63337)
10-29-2003 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by sidelined
10-29-2003 2:27 PM


I'll be back to respond in more detail, but I'll post this for now ...
sidelined:
______________
I have often seen this information and not had it proprly explained.
#1 How do you postulate that God is outside of time-Transcedant as you say?
#2How does a God view a creation he exists outside of?
#3How does he see without sense organs?
_______________
#1 in order to create space-time, the creator must transcend space-time.
#2 define view. also, since God transcends space-time, not only is he above it, but this causes Him to be omnipresent and as a result, omniscient, within it. also, who said that God ONLY exists outside of space-time?
#3 seeing is an action, and therefore a "doing." In order to "do" you must reside within space-time. Since God is transcendant of space-time, He "does" at infinite speed or, more specifically, He just IS. Instead of thinking or seeing, which is better left for un-omniscient and un-omnipresent "space-timers" like ourselves, God KNOWS. I posted a bit about this a few posts previous.
I'll be back ...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by sidelined, posted 10-29-2003 2:27 PM sidelined has not replied

Beercules
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 41 (63360)
10-29-2003 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Ex_Nihilo
10-28-2003 10:31 PM


quote:
Exactly! For God to be transcendant of space-time, he doesn't "do" anything. Or we could probably say that He does things at infinite speed. From His vantage point transcending space-time, everything is already done.
You're basically saying that from God's viewpoint, all of spacetime, which means the past present and future exist in one timeless state. Some apologetics have suggested this timeless state exists in the mind of God. In that case, they argue, God is not a creator in the casual sense, but in the fact that the mind is sustains spacetime.
This is all fine and dandy, but it quickly renders God redundant. If the universe (past, present and future) can exist as a 4D static existence, then it need not be contained in any mind. You can just as well postulate a timeless universe where what we perceive as events are just points along a contiuum of 4 spatial dimensions. This renders the first cause argument impotent. It also removes the contingency argument. No God required.
The moment one suggests all of time exists in one static state, contained in a mind of God or not, they have rendered God redundant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-28-2003 10:31 PM Ex_Nihilo has not replied

Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 15 of 41 (63364)
10-29-2003 6:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Ex_Nihilo
10-29-2003 1:25 PM


But you're skipping the main point: God created this reality, and created it with knowledge of everything that is going to happen; he "chose" to create this particular spacetime in which we exist. Here's the possibilities
1) That everything is already known by God (omniscient)
2) That not everything is already known by God (not omniscient)
1-1) Everything being known by God means that there is no such thing as free will
1-2) Everything being known by God can still exist with free will
Given (1-2), and assuming omnipotence, which I assume that you believe, God created all of reality instantaneously and has already made all choices (as you already stated), but left some things without known outcomes - with some sort of "cosmic unpredictedness" that he deliberately doesn't interfere with, and deliberately prevents himself from knowing; if he knew it and created it anyway, there would be no such thing as free-will, because your outcome would already have been chosen by God in his creation of this particular timeline.
However, if he has deliberately prevented himself from knowing the outcomes of our "choices", that means that God hasn't planned past the first human, and knows nothing of the outcome of humanity (again, if he did, then he chose this particular timeline, under which everything is predestined). Free will means that you can change the timeline. So, that means that, for example, a Russian leader could convert and join a doomsday cult, and blanket all of the world in mushroom clouds, and the subsequent fallout and nuclear winter wipe out the remainders of humanity. Or, humanity could spread out over highly relativistic distances, and be effectively invulnerable to annihilation until the universe's heat death. These are major differences here How would you argue that God "pieces back together" timelines? If he doesn't, and he deliberately keeps himself from knowing the outcomes of his choices, then knows virtually nothing about the modern world.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Ex_Nihilo, posted 10-29-2003 1:25 PM Ex_Nihilo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by smartalec_3, posted 10-29-2003 8:46 PM Rei has not replied

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