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Author Topic:   Subjective Evidence of Gods
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 436 of 468 (631945)
09-04-2011 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Butterflytyrant
09-04-2011 8:18 PM


Re: Detecting Intelligent Agency Where There Is None
You are learning nothing by debating with me (because you either cannot or will not learn).
Interesting, so I am unable or unwilling, to learn, correct. Can you give me another category, that is neither of these two
butterfly, instead of longwinded posts, simply put in one liners where you think my mistake is
Ask specific question in oneliners, if you think I am missing some point
Dawn Bertot
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-04-2011 8:18 PM Butterflytyrant has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 437 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2011 9:34 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 437 of 468 (631956)
09-04-2011 9:34 PM
Reply to: Message 436 by Dawn Bertot
09-04-2011 8:24 PM


willing not[willing] able and not[able]
Hi Dawn Bertot, been awhile.
Interesting, so I am unable or unwilling, to learn, correct. Can you give me another category, that is neither of these two
Try this visualization chart:


willing
not[willing]
able
willing & able
reply made

not[willing] but able
reply not made
not[able]
willing but not[able]
reply not made
not[willing] & not[able]
reply not made
Where not[X] is the logical form for everything that is not [X] (used like (-x) in maths. So we have a grid of (+x), (-x), (+y) and (-y) and four possible results).
Does that sum up your position?
The question then comes down to what "willing" and "able" mean, whether there is a null (0) position, and whether there exists another dimension category.
If we define "able" to mean that they have in good working order whatever is necessary to send and receive and understand the communication, and "willing" to mean caring, motivated, or inclined (etc), then we need to consider if there is a "zero" position between +x and -x for these terms.
When it comes to "willing" it may be possible to be ambivalent (a null position), answering sometimes and other times not, as more of a whim than a willingness, perhaps based on the toss of a coin.


willing
ambivalent
not[willing]
able
willing & able
reply made

ambivalent & able
reply made sometimes\occasionally
not[willing] but able
reply not made
not[able]
willing but not[able]
reply not made
ambivalent but not[able]
reply not made
not[willing] & not[able]
reply not made
Next, if there is a "Z" position\dimension with it's obverse "not{Z}"

{Z}
willing
ambivalent
not[willing]
able
{Z}, willing & able
reply made

{Z}, ambivalent & able
reply made sometimes\occasionally
{Z}, not[willing] but able
reply not made
not[able]
{Z}, willing but not[able]
reply not made
{Z}, ambivalent but not[able]
reply not made
{Z}, not[willing] & not[able]
reply not made
and

not{Z}
willing
ambivalent
not[willing]
able
not{Z}, but willing & able
reply not made
not{Z}, ambivalent & able
reply not made
not{Z}, not[willing] but able
reply not made
not[able]
not{Z}, willing but not[able]
reply not made
not{Z}, ambivalent but not[able]
reply not made
not{Z}, not[willing] & not[able]
reply not made
Your question is what would this {Z} position\dimension be, yes?
Again, the {Z} position could be anything orthogonal to "willing" and "able", including the use of a coin toss.
Enjoy.
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.
Edited by RAZD, : Well I tried.
Edited by RAZD, : colors
Edited by RAZD, : clrty

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 436 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-04-2011 8:24 PM Dawn Bertot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 438 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-04-2011 10:46 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 438 of 468 (631968)
09-04-2011 10:46 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by RAZD
09-04-2011 9:34 PM


Re: willing not[willing] able and not[able]
Enjoy.
I believe I will enjoy it as soon as you dumb it down and put it in simplier terms. Is it possible to put this in simple english, then perhaps I can see it alittle clearer
Dawn Bertot
OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to this message by continuing in this vein.
AdminPD
Edited by Dawn Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by AdminPD, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 437 by RAZD, posted 09-04-2011 9:34 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 198 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 439 of 468 (632125)
09-05-2011 8:20 PM


RAZD writes
Your question is what would this {Z} position\dimension be, yes?
Again, the {Z} position could be anything orthogonal to "willing" and "able", including the use of a coin toss.
Enjoy.
To admin, would you allow RAZD the time to explain in simple terms what his meaning are here
My interest is to see if he is suggesting that there is actuall another word or area where there is something other than, Willing, Un willing, Able or Unable
Thanks for your consideration
Dawn Bertot

Replies to this message:
 Message 440 by AdminPD, posted 09-05-2011 8:34 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

AdminPD
Inactive Administrator


Message 440 of 468 (632129)
09-05-2011 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 439 by Dawn Bertot
09-05-2011 8:20 PM


Stick to the Topic
It's got to tie into the topic.
You've been arguing with BFT for so long the point and how it pertains to the topic is lost.
AdminPD
Do not respond to this message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 439 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-05-2011 8:20 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by RAZD, posted 09-06-2011 10:59 AM AdminPD has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 441 of 468 (632208)
09-06-2011 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 440 by AdminPD
09-05-2011 8:34 PM


new topic
Hi AdminPD,
It seems the best solution would be to have a new thread
see Proposed New Topics: Logical Question: | willing | not[willing] |able | not[able] |
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 440 by AdminPD, posted 09-05-2011 8:34 PM AdminPD has not replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 442 of 468 (632238)
09-06-2011 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 425 by Chuck77
09-02-2011 4:26 AM


Re: subjective evidence overload
Chuck writes:
I know! Isn't it great. Talk about overload of subjective evidence.
What subjective evidence of what? That people are converting from one religion to another is objectively evidenced isn't it? The question is why you think this matters?
Chuck writes:
Although there are MANY more muslims converting to christianity than the other way around I think it says something regardless don't you?
Is that actually true?
And if it is true what does it say other than one religion is more appealing than another? I hear Scientology is the worlds fastest growing religion. What does that tell us?
It is just a case of the argumentum ad populum fallacy to claim that being the largest, fastest growing or most converted to religion has any logical consequences about the truth of that religion.
So I am not sure what your point is with this Islam/Christian stuff......?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 425 by Chuck77, posted 09-02-2011 4:26 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member (Idle past 181 days)
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 443 of 468 (632240)
09-06-2011 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 420 by Dawn Bertot
09-01-2011 6:54 PM


Re: Being dishonest
DB writes:
Really Straggler, lets see this list, with the confessionals on the ocean of people that have converted. Perhaps like many things this is greatly exaggerated. Would you happen to have the visual evidence that supports this claim.
You didn't read the link did you? It was full of examples.
Frankly I am bewildered why you and Chuck place so much emphasis on who is converting from what to what. Why does it matter? But the silly idea that there aren't Christians converting to other religions is patently false.
Here is one of the numerous testimonies from the link previously provided.
Previoulsy given link writes:
I was interested in religion and excelled in the study of languages and accepted a full scholarship to a university in Cameroon after graduating from high school. Again, as the only female, I enrolled in the College of Theology. I wasn’t sure where I would go with it, but after a short while, the administration applied for a scholarship in the same College of Theology, but in Belgium. There I would learn how to be a Pastor in the Roman Catholic Church. My language ability aided me quite a bit and my mastery of some of the African dialects attracted them as a good candidate for missionary work.
As the years went by, I began to see through the layers of theology and found the superficiality of their teachings. I was not alone in seeing the many contradictions in the New and Old Testaments. To learn that the ‘Trinity’ is mentioned only once in the New Testament was a surprise but when I learned it had been fully established at the Council of Nicea and that it was not part of what Jesus taught, something in my mind clicked.
We were shown certain books called the Gnostic Books, which we were told were hidden teachings, I understood that the church was being deceitful and this was disturbing. How could I believe that this was, as they said, the word of God from A to Z. "The People of the Book know this as they know their own sons; but some of them conceal the Truth which they themselves know. The Truth is from thy Lord, so be not in doubt." (Qur’an 2:146-147)
Still I pursued my studies in an effort to be able to help myself and my people some day. "As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects, thou has no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did." (Qur’an 6:159)
After graduation from University, I took a position in Nairobi, Kenya. The Church was very anxious to have an African in a position such as this. They had many programmes for women and I was a coordinator for these programmes under the auspices of the World Council of Churches. I handled different aspects of exhibitions, women’s projects, donors, workshops and conferences.
I was sent to the regional office in Togo because they are mainly French-speaking which I spoke fluently and the type of projects I knew how to handle were being implemented there. I began to search for the spiritual force that was missing in my life and in Togo I searched through all the practiced religions. When one looks for truth there are many things thrown in one’s path.
This part of Africa has many people who practice witchcraft and who claim to have knowledge of the unseen and it was obvious they were just taking people’s money. There is no one with knowledge of the unseen except God.
I had been facing much mediocrity from the Church and at the same time I had Muslim friends who were very comfortable in their knowledge of God, who prayed five times daily and who had many virtues. They believed in what they said, in contrast to the Church where you repeat what you have been taught without believing in it.
I had never been taught anything about Islam except a superficial introduction so I did a lot of reading about the religion.
I cannot say that to convert to Islam was easy; it was very difficult. But when one is searching for the truth there is no way to deny it.
The decision was also difficult for economic reasons as I had one of the highest paying professions with many perks.
I resigned from my position citing my conversion as my reason and immediately lost my job and salary, housing and medical benefits. I became destitute in one day! My family does not like my hijab but they admire the moral aspects of Islam. I helped to raise my brothers and sisters and they are much younger than I, and now to see how much they hate me is almost unbearable.
They felt the economic hardship immediately as I did, and cannot understand why I would do such a thing. But with the grace of Allah they too will find the truth of Islam, Insha’allah. I hope and pray that I can use the knowledge that the education in the Church gave me towards the propagation of Islam. The spiritual climate of West Africa is ripe for Islam and there are many projects which need doing. This is what I have been trained to do and so my path is straight and narrow for me now.
But my question to you is - Why does it matter who is converting from what to what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 420 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-01-2011 6:54 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 444 of 468 (632775)
09-10-2011 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 442 by Straggler
09-06-2011 2:11 PM


Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Straggler writes:
The question is why you think this matters?
Dude, the question isn't why ME thinks this matters it's why THEY think it matters. Not me Straggler, geez.
Is that actually true?
Yes, it is. If it wasn't you would be all over it with 900 links...not just one talking about some american's converting to Islam. It's very true that more Muslims are converting to Christianity than Believers of Jesus Christ (Christians) are converting to Islam.
It is just a case of the argumentum ad populum fallacy to claim that being the largest, fastest growing or most converted to religion has any logical consequences about the truth of that religion.
Whoa dude. Im not claiming at all that Christianity is the fastest growing anything NOR am I claiming that it is the most converted.
I said more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. How many times do you need this repeated? Apperantly many many times.
Can you ever admit anything is true????? You are frikking impossible dude, your like a dam woman you know that?
So I am not sure what your point is with this Islam/Christian stuff......?
Well then I can't help you. If you can't see that muslims converting over the Christianity much more than Christians converting to Islam means something surley I can't help you.
It would seem whatever subjective evidence they are coming across, favors Christianity.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 442 by Straggler, posted 09-06-2011 2:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Huntard, posted 09-10-2011 3:30 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 446 by Panda, posted 09-10-2011 6:24 AM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 449 by Theodoric, posted 09-10-2011 9:35 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 450 by RAZD, posted 09-10-2011 9:37 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 453 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2011 4:43 PM Chuck77 has replied

Huntard
Member (Idle past 2410 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


(2)
Message 445 of 468 (632776)
09-10-2011 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Chuck77 writes:
Well then I can't help you. If you can't see that muslims converting over the Christianity much more than Christians converting to Islam means something surley I can'y help you.
It would seem whatever subjective evidence they are coming across, favors Christianity.
Well, I had another talk with the Muslim down the street, and according to him, it's not evidence favouring Christianity, it's evidence favouring the power of Satan, for leading all those believers in the true Muslim faith down the rabbit hole of the lies of Christianity.
Now, again, who should I believe, you, who claim it is god finally reaching the Muslims, or the Muslim down the street, who says it's Satan, misleading all the Muslims?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Panda
Member (Idle past 3828 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(2)
(2)
Message 446 of 468 (632787)
09-10-2011 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Chuck77 writes:
You are frikking impossible dude, your like a dam woman you know that?
Misogyny: for when racism isn't enough hate.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 447 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 6:52 AM Panda has replied

Chuck77
Inactive Member


(5)
Message 447 of 468 (632790)
09-10-2011 6:52 AM
Reply to: Message 446 by Panda
09-10-2011 6:24 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Thanks again Panda, for adding to the conversation. Your one liners are as boring as you are.
Trying to derail the thread? Nothing to add to the discussion? Straggler is a big boy and would probably laugh at that but if you feel the need to stick up for Straggler im sure he is very thankful for you being here to defend him. Itching for that pat on the back huh?
He's like a big brother ehe? I understand. I have a little brother. I hope Straggler validates your feelings. I really do. It's ok little guy...it's..OK.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 446 by Panda, posted 09-10-2011 6:24 AM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 448 by fearandloathing, posted 09-10-2011 7:01 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 451 by Panda, posted 09-10-2011 1:58 PM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 454 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2011 4:55 PM Chuck77 has not replied

fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4260 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
(1)
Message 448 of 468 (632791)
09-10-2011 7:01 AM
Reply to: Message 447 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 6:52 AM


Why respond?
Thanks agaon Panda for adding to the conversation. Your one liners are as boring as you are.
Then why bother to respond?
Trying to derail the thread?
Isn't that what you are doing by responding?
Straggler is a big boy
You could act like one and not respond to off topic post....simply acknowledge the reply...or not. That seems like what a big boy who is also a moderator would do.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 447 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 6:52 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9367
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.7


(1)
(2)
Message 449 of 468 (632804)
09-10-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
I said more muslims are converting to Christinaity than Christians are converting to Islam. How many times do you need this repeated? Apperantly many many times.
Where is the evidence? Anecdotes are not evidence.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 461 by Theodoric, posted 09-11-2011 8:49 AM Theodoric has not replied

RAZD
Member (Idle past 1520 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
(5)
Message 450 of 468 (632805)
09-10-2011 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 444 by Chuck77
09-10-2011 3:22 AM


Re: Straggler is always right every time eternity infinity
Hi Chuck77
Can you ever admit anything is true?????
In the many years of debate I have had with Straggler I do not recall ever seeing him acknowledge being wrong on a specific point.
You are frikking impossible dude, your like a dam woman you know that?
A breeding woman? Or a water holding woman?
He's just letting his feminine side out -- it's more like he's a bulldog that can't let go of a bone.
See Winners and Losers in general and Message 11 in particular. I'd say he has more trouble acknowledging it than other people. Note that admitting to losing a debate is not the same as admitting to being wrong.
Extreme inability to admit error in the face of contrary evidence could be pathological:
delusion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)
  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.
Delusion1a is dishonest, especially when it leads to other people being Delusion1b or Delusion2. Fortunately Delusion1b and Delusion2 are curable with education and information showing the particular belief to be wrong. Unfortunately Delusion3 is pathological and often requires treatment, especially if it presents a hazard to others.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by Chuck77, posted 09-10-2011 3:22 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 452 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2011 4:32 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied
 Message 455 by Straggler, posted 09-10-2011 5:14 PM RAZD has replied

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