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Author Topic:   Do Christians Worship Different Gods?
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 151 of 286 (632047)
09-05-2011 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Granny Magda
09-05-2011 9:47 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Granny Magda writes:
Yes, I agree. But when we take a look at reality, that is not what we see. We do not see religions converging upon a central truth, except where science has forced them to withdraw from various claims (cosmology, origins of life and so forth).Instead we see religions diverging over time. This is more consistent with a non-divine explanation. When tested against reality your idea seems to fail. I regard that as strong evidence that you are wrong.
Actually when you look at the world today as opposed to even relatively recent history people of different faiths are much more integrated than they have ever been. Yes, there are those that rub each other the wrong way and we wind up with problems, but primarily we are living next door to each other and we get along.
God's message of love, peace and the Good Samaritan is taking hold.
Granny Magda writes:
But how did you know which bits of the Bible were the good bits and which the bad? It can't be from the Bible, or else you would think slavery good and women's rights bad.
There is a clear trajectory throughout the Bible pointing away from slavery and the place regressive attitude towards women in society. We think of slavery as we knew it in the UK and the US. Slavery at the time of Christ was quite different and it wasn't for life. You can take specific quotes from Paul written to specific churches but in other places you see Paul talking about women in leadership positions in the church.
Granny Magda writes:
I maintain that you already had the moral instincts. You only associate them with God because your religious conversion (an attempt at self-improvement on your part) occurred at the same time as your moral development (another concious attempt at self-improvement. It does not mean that there is a direct causal relationship, only a loose association.
Sure I already had moral instincts. We all do. As far as my becoming a Christian is concerned there is no argument I can make that is cause anyone to think differently about it. It is my own experience which doesn't mean anything to anyone else but things just changed for me.
Granny Magda writes:
I don't think it is an issue. You can only assert that God is the source of morality. You can offer no evidence.
True. Morality exists and there is no empirical evidence to tell us whether we have morality from a moral prime mover or if it just developed through totally natural materials. Are conclusions are completely subjective.
Granny Magda writes:
I'm sorry, but it just sounds like more rationalising. Trying to view the Jewish scriptures through a Christian lens is a textbook example of cherry picking, since it was not written for Christians. The reason that your "truth" is so nebulous is precisely because you are cherry picking.
I cannot fathom why an intelligent god would chose to work by encouraging his followers into this kind of vague nebulous rationalisation. That doesn't sound to me like God is trying to encourage us to use reason, it sounds more like he is trying to persuade us to abandon it.
The Hebrew Scriptures is the story of the early Jews written for the world. Abraham was to be the father of many nations. Jesus was the fulfillment of those scriptures. Jesus said that love of God and neighbour was the basis for all the laws and the prophets. It isn't just cherry picking.
If God were to make everything crystal clear we would be losing our opportunity to freely choose the way He wants us to go. We have choices to make in this life. We choose selfish love or unselfish love and we don't empirically know if it really makes any difference to us or in the long run to humanity.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by Granny Magda, posted 09-05-2011 9:47 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Granny Magda, posted 09-05-2011 3:37 PM GDR has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 152 of 286 (632087)
09-05-2011 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by GDR
09-05-2011 1:13 PM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Actually when you look at the world today as opposed to even relatively recent history people of different faiths are much more integrated than they have ever been. Yes, there are those that rub each other the wrong way and we wind up with problems, but primarily we are living next door to each other and we get along.
True, but from their emergence, each of these faiths splintered into a multitude of separate sects. How many have formally re-united? None that I know of. Today there are a bewildering number of different flavours of Abrahamic religion, all with their own take on the faith. Many are by no means as liberal with their scriptures as you are. I think you are putting too rosy a sheen on this one.
There is a clear trajectory throughout the Bible pointing away from slavery and the place regressive attitude towards women in society.
I think you are projecting. The OT supports slavery and the NT tolerates it. Neither condemn it. This, to my mind, rules out both as the voice of any benevolent being. The same goes for women's rights, which, despite any positive sound-bites you might be able to quote, are never clearly articulated in scripture. I find it unthinkable that a divine being could send us his message of love and allow this to go unmentioned, thus condemning half the world's population to continued oppression.
You have to admit, for a timeless message of love and harmony, these two issues stand out as quite major omissions.
True. Morality exists and there is no empirical evidence to tell us whether we have morality from a moral prime mover or if it just developed through totally natural materials. Are conclusions are completely subjective.
So the Bible fails as a moral guide. It fails in practical terms (it failed to teach Iano a damn thing) and it fails in theory as well, since you can't reasonably pin our morality on God.
The only things hanging your Christianity together seem to be the resurrection and the OT prophecies that are said to predict Jesus. As axiomatic principles go, these two are a big ask. Also well outside the scope of this thread.
If God were to make everything crystal clear we would be losing our opportunity to freely choose the way He wants us to go. We have choices to make in this life. We choose selfish love or unselfish love and we don't empirically know if it really makes any difference to us or in the long run to humanity.
I strongly disagree with this. By telling us the truth in a clear and rational way, God would in fact be giving us a better choice. It would be an informed choice and thus a mature choice. As things stand (according to your model), he has chosen to communicate his message via an absurdly unclear medium. This has lead to doubt, schism, factionalism, and war. By choosing this deliberately obscure means of communication, God has transformed the choice he would have us make into a totally irrational one, founded upon flimsy evidence and bad logic. I don't think I could ever believe that a good god would behave in this petty way. Certainly, if there is such a thing as Hell, he owes us the chance to make an informed adult choice. In denying us this, I think your god is doing a great injustice.
If God were to send us a clear message it might make choosing God a bit of a no-brainer, but it would not take away our choice. In fact, it would be the only way of making it an meaningful choice.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by GDR, posted 09-05-2011 1:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 09-05-2011 4:54 PM Granny Magda has replied
 Message 154 by iano, posted 09-06-2011 5:55 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 153 of 286 (632101)
09-05-2011 4:54 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Granny Magda
09-05-2011 3:37 PM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Granny Magda writes:
True, but from their emergence, each of these faiths splintered into a multitude of separate sects. How many have formally re-united? None that I know of. Today there are a bewildering number of different flavours of Abrahamic religion, all with their own take on the faith. Many are by no means as liberal with their scriptures as you are. I think you are putting too rosy a sheen on this one.
Granny Magda writes:
I strongly disagree with this. By telling us the truth in a clear and rational way, God would in fact be giving us a better choice. It would be an informed choice and thus a mature choice. As things stand (according to your model), he has chosen to communicate his message via an absurdly unclear medium. This has lead to doubt, schism, factionalism, and war. By choosing this deliberately obscure means of communication, God has transformed the choice he would have us make into a totally irrational one, founded upon flimsy evidence and bad logic. I don't think I could ever believe that a good god would behave in this petty way. Certainly, if there is such a thing as Hell, he owes us the chance to make an informed adult choice. In denying us this, I think your god is doing a great injustice.
If God were to send us a clear message it might make choosing God a bit of a no-brainer, but it would not take away our choice. In fact, it would be the only way of making it an meaningful choice.
As I mentioned, my favourite theologian is N T Wright He often says in his talks that he believes that about 1/3 of what he says is wrong but the problem is that he doesn't know which third it is. If you want absolutes then theology is definitely not the field for you. You seem to want a god(s) where you can go for specific answers to specific questions and a god(s) who will give you a specific list of rules and regulations.
If God was that kind of god it would be a very different world. In my view the God that actually exists is one who wants us to choose Him freely. He has breathed life into us and given us the freedom to make our choices. It is like raising our own children. We love them, feed them, house them etc with the goal that will grow up in the way that we want them to, but we also raise them to be free to come to their own conclusions about life which may be very different than our own. Theology is not an exact science, but I believe that we continue to learn, just like raising children.
My belief is that God has created us with the hope and expectation that we will respond to the concept of unselfish love, that we will find joy in the joy of others and suffer when others suffer. He has given us hearts that are able to understand that choice and respond freely to it.
Frankly I contend that God has made it clear. I think that most people from the time they are quite young basically know that unselfish love is what we should aspire to, but it is so easy to take the other route and make your life one of "looking out for number one".
I think that is the basic and clear message of God. Theology is in my view the study of how God has interacted, continues to interact with and will interact with the world in the future. It is also the study of ways that we God wants us to put our unselfish love into practice. (ie: stories like the Good Samaritin or the Prodigal Son.)
Granny Magda writes:
I think you are projecting. The OT supports slavery and the NT tolerates it. Neither condemn it. This, to my mind, rules out both as the voice of any benevolent being. The same goes for women's rights, which, despite any positive sound-bites you might be able to quote, are never clearly articulated in scripture. I find it unthinkable that a divine being could send us his message of love and allow this to go unmentioned, thus condemning half the world's population to continued oppression.
I could try paraphrasing what N T Wright says in this 4 min video clip on the subject but I wouldn't do it justice so I'll give you the link to it.
N T Wright on slavery and sexism
For some reason most of what I read is written by your fellow Brits. People like N T Wright, John Polkinghorne and Alister McGrath. On the other side I don't particularly enjoy Dawkins but I find Chris Hitchens a much better read. (Hopefully he can beat this cancer.)

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Granny Magda, posted 09-05-2011 3:37 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 8:23 AM GDR has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 154 of 286 (632162)
09-06-2011 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by Granny Magda
09-05-2011 3:37 PM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Granny Magda writes:
If God were to send us a clear message it might make choosing God a bit of a no-brainer, but it would not take away our choice. In fact, it would be the only way of making it an meaningful choice.
Taking this last bit first: God making a choice a 'no-brainer' dissolves the notion of choice (where 'choice' is defined as involving options which have balance in the pro's/cons's attaching to them)
-
I strongly disagree with this. By telling us the truth in a clear and rational way, God would in fact be giving us a better choice. It would be an informed choice and thus a mature choice. As things stand (according to your model), he has chosen to communicate his message via an absurdly unclear medium. This has lead to doubt, schism, factionalism, and war. By choosing this deliberately obscure means of communication, God has transformed the choice he would have us make into a totally irrational one, founded upon flimsy evidence and bad logic. I don't think I could ever believe that a good god would behave in this petty way. Certainly, if there is such a thing as Hell, he owes us the chance to make an informed adult choice. In denying us this, I think your god is doing a great injustice.
The idea of balance comes into play here. It isn't fitting that God set out the full consequences of our decision either way 'in order that we can make a fully informed choice'. In producing a "no-brainer" he would also be producing a no-choice situation.
What if God, instead, produced a situation on earth where we could be exposed to a balanced set of circumstances where the pro's/con's of God's-way and not-God's-way were both experienced and executed by us. A situation were we would get to experience both sides of the coin so as to decide which it was we preferred.
It wouldn't matter that both sides of the coin experienced on earth weren't the fullest manifestation of what it was to experience God/no God in eternity since there is sufficient in a balanced 'taster' to establish which direction we've set our hearts on.
God/no God eternity would merely be more (much more) of the same thing we plumped for here.
-
GDR touches on the idea here. He doesn't seem to imply that we need rely on the Bible or any other arguably flawed means of enabling our choice. Although I'd disagree with him about the nature of God, I do think this is how God supplies us with choice.
GDR writes:
My belief is that God has created us with the hope and expectation that we will respond to the concept of unselfish love, that we will find joy in the joy of others and suffer when others suffer. He has given us hearts that are able to understand that choice and respond freely to it.
Frankly I contend that God has made it clear. I think that most people from the time they are quite young basically know that unselfish love is what we should aspire to, but it is so easy to take the other route and make your life one of "looking out for number one".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Granny Magda, posted 09-05-2011 3:37 PM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 8:28 AM iano has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 155 of 286 (632180)
09-06-2011 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by GDR
09-05-2011 4:54 PM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
As I mentioned, my favourite theologian is N T Wright He often says in his talks that he believes that about 1/3 of what he says is wrong but the problem is that he doesn't know which third it is.
Only a third? Lucky man.
If you want absolutes then theology is definitely not the field for you.
Well absolutely. In my opinion, that's because theology is nothing more than cobbled together moral philosophy and literary criticism, none of which can ever be absolutely authoritative.
By contrast, if there were real gods, there would be no reason why theology need be so nebulous. Theology is vague because it is the study of things that aren't real.
You seem to want a god(s) where you can go for specific answers to specific questions and a god(s) who will give you a specific list of rules and regulations.
The stakes are high though. If a god is going to place my immortal soul in the balance, dependent on my adhering to a set of rules, it seems only fair for him to tell me what those rules are, clearly and without obfuscation. By analogy, I am expected to obey the laws of the land. If I fail to do this, I am punished. But the point is that those laws are available to me in a clear and understandable form. The laws of God are hidden amongst piles of dross, cunningly disguised as the deluded opinions of long deceased men. If If a nation were to present its laws in such a way, no-one would know which they were expected to keep and which they were not. It would be a ridiculous situation and yet I think it is a close match for what you are describing.
It is like raising our own children. We love them, feed them, house them etc with the goal that will grow up in the way that we want them to, but we also raise them to be free to come to their own conclusions about life which may be very different than our own. Theology is not an exact science, but I believe that we continue to learn, just like raising children.
Except that if our children disappoint us, we don't sentence them to eternal torture. That would seem a bit harsh. Not very parental.
Frankly I contend that God has made it clear.
Then why are there so many Christians who place faith over deeds? It can't be that clear. And there are also many Christians who act like demented bullies, so God's will seems to have passed them by as well. On balance, I think He could have made it clearer.
I could try paraphrasing what N T Wright says in this 4 min video clip on the subject but I wouldn't do it justice so I'll give you the link to it.
I took a look. I wasn't very impressed. He spend most of the first minute equivocating over the question. Then he shamelessly cherry picks the OT, skipping right over its hypocrisy. Then he further equivocates over the "slavery of sin" (what rubbish!). He doesn't even mention sexism at all. The only point he makes is the bit about declaring a slave to be a "Christian brother". I think that this fails any moral test. Person-hood is not dependant upon being a Christian. Paul should be articulating the universal person-hood of all humanity, Christian or not. He should be clearly condemning all slavery, not just making vague noises about it. He should condemn the ill treatment of the slave on the basis that slavery is absolutely wrong in all cases, not for any other reason. His failure to express clear moral principles on this issue totally undermines any respect that I might have for him as a moral guide. He is not revealing some timeless moral standard he is merely a man of his time. And a nasty and brutish time it was.
For some reason most of what I read is written by your fellow Brits. People like N T Wright, John Polkinghorne and Alister McGrath. On the other side I don't particularly enjoy Dawkins but I find Chris Hitchens a much better read. (Hopefully he can beat this cancer.)
I would love to think so, I have always liked Hitchens. Sadly, the outlook apparently is not good. I agree that he's a better writer than Dawkins, but I still like reading Dawkins, as his views correspond very closely to mine. McGrath on the other hand annoyed me so much that I would have thrown his book across the room if I hadn't been reading it in a PDF. Even then I was tempted to take my frustration out on my monitor.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by GDR, posted 09-05-2011 4:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by GDR, posted 09-06-2011 10:06 PM Granny Magda has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 156 of 286 (632181)
09-06-2011 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 154 by iano
09-06-2011 5:55 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Taking this last bit first: God making a choice a 'no-brainer' dissolves the notion of choice (where 'choice' is defined as involving options which have balance in the pro's/cons's attaching to them)
I notice that you had to redefine the meaning of the word "choice" to reach this spurious conclusion.
The idea of balance comes into play here. It isn't fitting that God set out the full consequences of our decision either way 'in order that we can make a fully informed choice'. In producing a "no-brainer" he would also be producing a no-choice situation.
No, he would be creating an informed choice. Simply having a very easy choice does not mean that one has no choice.
If anything removes the element of choice it is the threat of eternal torture.
What if God, instead, produced a situation on earth where we could be exposed to a balanced set of circumstances where the pro's/con's of God's-way and not-God's-way were both experienced and executed by us. A situation were we would get to experience both sides of the coin so as to decide which it was we preferred.
That might be more reasonable, provided that the conditions of that choice were made freely and clearly available to all. Failure to provide such information undermines the validity of the exchange.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by iano, posted 09-06-2011 5:55 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 09-06-2011 9:14 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 157 of 286 (632191)
09-06-2011 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by Granny Magda
09-06-2011 8:28 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Granny M writes:
I notice that you had to redefine the meaning of the word "choice" to reach this spurious conclusion.
How so, spurious? Clearly the less balance there is in the options the less choice is involved.
For example, let's suppose someone holds a gun to your head - the deal being that you give them a dollar or they shoot you. You have a choice of course, but the imbalance skews choice in the direction of coughing up the dollar.
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No, he would be creating an informed choice. Simply having a very easy choice does not mean that one has no choice.
The focus would appear to be on providing a balanced choice. Once that is given priority, there wouldn't appear to be anything gained by adding more information to both sides of the scales.
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If anything removes the element of choice it is the threat of eternal torture.
Indeed. If God equipped us with firm insight into both heaven and hell everybody would "choose" heaven.
-
That might be more reasonable, provided that the conditions of that choice were made freely and clearly available to all.
Although there is no one-size-fits-all method involved in ensuring folk have the means available to them to make their choice, I gather such a balanced choice to be provided everyone. Whether they've heard of God/the Bible/Jesus or not.
It would appear to rest on a matter of hearts desire rather than what might be concluded solely by an intellectual weighing up of the various propositions. Everyone has a heart that can desire, not everyone is intellectually equipped to weigh up propositions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 8:28 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 158 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 9:30 AM iano has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 158 of 286 (632196)
09-06-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 157 by iano
09-06-2011 9:14 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
How so, spurious? Clearly the less balance there is in the options the less choice is involved.
Nonsense. It is still a choice, just a more obvious choice. There is no element of loss of free will here. Only a clearer choice. I fail to see how an unclear choice is any better.
For example, let's suppose someone holds a gun to your head - the deal being that you give them a dollar or they shoot you. You have a choice of course, but the imbalance skews choice in the direction of coughing up the dollar.
That's the best simile you have to offer? With the message being hidden so thoroughly, your god is more akin to an unseen sniper. I fail to see how this makes it any better when he pulls the trigger. I think I'd rather take the more honest approach of a gun in my face.
By the way, I have actually had a gun pointed in my face and I chose not to do as I was told. So apparently I did have a choice.
The focus would appear to be on providing a balanced choice. Once that is given priority, there wouldn't appear to be anything gained by adding more information to both sides of the scales.
The only way that this choice can be made to appear balanced is by obfuscating all the details. That is not a balanced choice, it is a con job.
Indeed. If God equipped us with firm insight into both heaven and hell everybody would "choose" heaven.
So he hides the truth from us in a deliberate attempt to catch us out. That is pretty sick stuff.
Although there is no one-size-fits-all method involved in ensuring folk have the means available to them to make their choice, I gather such a balanced choice to be provided everyone. Whether they've heard of God/the Bible/Jesus or not.
If that is true it makes the Bible completely unimportant.
It would appear to rest on a matter of hearts desire rather than what might be concluded solely by an intellectual weighing up of the various propositions. Everyone has a heart that can desire, not everyone is intellectually equipped to weigh up propositions.
And if they were given a genuinely clear description of the consequences of following that heart's desire, then they might be fairly held to account. But we are given no such description.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 157 by iano, posted 09-06-2011 9:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 09-06-2011 10:01 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 159 of 286 (632201)
09-06-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Granny Magda
09-06-2011 9:30 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Granny M writes:
Nonsense. It is still a choice, just a more obvious choice. There is no element of loss of free will here. Only a clearer choice. I fail to see how an unclear choice is any better.
I didn't deny it was still a choice, I was suggesting that the more you place pressure to move in a particular direction the less free the choice. If the simile used doesn't appeal to you personally then choose one that would - I was working from the premise that most folk when faced with a gun in the face would consider that overwhelming pressure to move in a particular direction.
Free (in the sense that you can always refuse). Skewed (in the sense that you are unlikely to)
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The only way that this choice can be made to appear balanced is by obfuscating all the details. That is not a balanced choice, it is a con job.
That argument is easily countered by Knowledge of Good and Evil software installed in you during manufacture. Assuming it was installed.
The fact that everyone is free to fiddle around with the code so as to come up with their own pirate, self-obfuscatedversions wouldn't alter anything - not least the fact of their culpability in altering the code to suit themselves.
That this will produce endless debate and disagreement about what's right and wrong between various code-rewriters, isn't relevant to the only debate that matters. That between the code-rewriter and the original author.
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So he hides the truth from us in a deliberate attempt to catch us out. That is pretty sick stuff.
He hides that truth because the game is played out using other tools.
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If that is true it makes the Bible completely unimportant.
To the lost it's impenetrable and useless. To the found (on on the verge of being found) it has it's uses. But I'd agree it's not mission critical.
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And if they were given a genuinely clear description of the consequences of following that heart's desire, then they might be fairly held to account. But we are given no such description.
Only if you assume intellectual assent trumps hearts desire. A heart can desire good (or evil) of a kind that can't necessarily be vocalised.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 9:30 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 10:18 AM iano has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 160 of 286 (632202)
09-06-2011 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 159 by iano
09-06-2011 10:01 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
I didn't deny it was still a choice, I was suggesting that the more you place pressure to move in a particular direction the less free the choice.
Then you have to decry the sentence of Hell. It is the ultimate in unfair pressures. Again, a hidden gunman is no better than an upfront one. Worse actually. I would rather know when someone is pointing a gun at me
That argument is easily countered by Knowledge of Good and Evil software installed in you during manufacture. Assuming it was installed.
You're not one to talk.
Given that what I see in the Bible is only evidence of appalling immorality, I see no reason to make any connection between morality and God. Your argument software argument though, only means that were God to equip us with the proper information needed to make an informed choice, we would be able to employ that moral software in coming to our decision. It would be an argument in favour of giving us the full picture, since we would be able to make proper use of the information.
He hides that truth because the game is played out using other tools.
So you say. But given that those tools also seem to be hidden, I am not impressed with that "God ate my homework" excuse.
To the lost it's impenetrable and useless. To the found (on on the verge of being found) it has it's uses.
Thus making it even more useless.
Only if you assume intellectual assent trumps hearts desire. A heart can desire good (or evil) of a kind that can't necessarily be vocalised.
Well that's the basis of a moral choice, choosing not to commit the immoral action that one might desire to commit. But subjecting to so terrible a judgement as Hell on the basis of an uninformed choice just seems wrong to me.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 159 by iano, posted 09-06-2011 10:01 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by iano, posted 09-07-2011 5:01 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 161 of 286 (632304)
09-06-2011 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 155 by Granny Magda
09-06-2011 8:23 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Granny Magda writes:
The stakes are high though. If a god is going to place my immortal soul in the balance, dependent on my adhering to a set of rules, it seems only fair for him to tell me what those rules are, clearly and without obfuscation. By analogy, I am expected to obey the laws of the land. If I fail to do this, I am punished. But the point is that those laws are available to me in a clear and understandable form. The laws of God are hidden amongst piles of dross, cunningly disguised as the deluded opinions of long deceased men. If If a nation were to present its laws in such a way, no-one would know which they were expected to keep and which they were not. It would be a ridiculous situation and yet I think it is a close match for what you are describing.
But you are describing a God that I don't believe in either. I find so often that atheists on this forum keep reverting back to this straw man. It isn't a matter of following a set of laws. It is about what we choose. Here is a quote from C S Lewis.
quote:
There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, ‘Thy will be done,’ and those to whom God says, in the end, ‘Thy will be done.’ All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.
We know when we are acting and thinking selfishly. We know when we do things that benefit ourselves at the expense of others. The more our lives are about these things, the more selfishness just becomes who we are. Of course the converse is also true. The more we act and think unselfishly the more that becomes who we are. In the end those that choose selfishness will choose Hell and want no part of the other alternative.
We all have a yearning for justice and this allows for justice to be done. I'll give you an example. A number of years ago very near to where I live a young boy named Michael Dunahee was abducted. The person who abducted him has never been apprehended and Michael has never been found. There is no justice for either the abductor or for Michael.
However, it is hard to imagine a more selfish act than an act like this. I can't imagine this person as a person who would seek joy by bringing joy to others and as a result I can't see this person as choosing anything but Hell. It also gives Michael justice in that he has the opportunity to make his own choice. I do believe in an eternal justice, but not one based on getting your doctrine right and not on one that has you following a certain set of laws that will get you onto the right side of God. If it was like that it would not be an existence freely chosen and I do believe in a God that will honour our choices.
Granny Magda writes:
Except that if our children disappoint us, we don't sentence them to eternal torture. That would seem a bit harsh. Not very parental.
No, we allow them to make their own choices as God does with us.
Again I’ll just repeat my favourite Bible verse that I believe encapsulated the message that God would have us hear.
Micah 6:8
quote:
He has showed you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God
You want the direction that God wants you to take spelled out for clearly. I don’t see how it can get much clearer than that. Of course it isn’t a direction that involve a set of laws it is a direction for your heart.
Edited by GDR, : I actually do know the difference between hear and here.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 155 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 8:23 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by Granny Magda, posted 09-08-2011 10:47 AM GDR has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 162 of 286 (632327)
09-07-2011 5:01 AM
Reply to: Message 160 by Granny Magda
09-06-2011 10:18 AM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
iano writes:
I didn't deny it was still a choice, I was suggesting that the more you place pressure to move in a particular direction the less free the choice.
Granny M writes:
Then you have to decry the sentence of Hell. It is the ultimate in unfair pressures. Again, a hidden gunman is no better than an upfront one. Worse actually. I would rather know when someone is pointing a gun at me
You don't believe in the existence of God, never mind Heaven or Hell. How can you be pressurized (heavenward by Heaven, hellward by Hell) by something you don't believe in?
You seem to agree with the point made: as pressure tilting the scales in a particular direction goes up, so does the amount of actual choice involved go down.
-
Given that what I see in the Bible is only evidence of appalling immorality, I see no reason to make any connection between morality and God. Your software argument though, only means that were God to equip us with the proper information needed to make an informed choice, we would be able to employ that moral software in coming to our decision. It would be an argument in favour of giving us the full picture, since we would be able to make proper use of the information.
The software argument says all the equipment you need* is installed. You know what's good and you know what's evil and you make choices (and experience consequences, pertaining to good and evil - both your own and others) in relation to that knowledge.
* By 'you need' I mean all the knowledge God reckons he has to install in you order that your hearts desire in the matter can be established. If, for example, the negative experiences associated with your evil-doing and the positives associated with your good-doing don't combine to push you to your knees then your hearts desire is seen to want to remain in your sin.
-
But given that those tools also seem to be hidden, I am not impressed with that "God ate my homework" excuse.
The tools might be hidden in the sense that a person will not know the use God has in equipping them with them. Or even that God has equipped them with tools at all. Or that God exists.
No matter - it's their hearts desire that God is interested in, not their knowing that he is inquiring into the direction of that desire. As I say: all that will happen in the end is that a person will have their hearts desire met - in fullest measure. What better way to give a hearts desire than inquire into what it is?
-
Thus making it even more useless.
I'm not sure I follow.
-
Well that's the basis of a moral choice, choosing not to commit the immoral action that one might desire to commit. But subjecting to so terrible a judgement as Hell on the basis of an uninformed choice just seems wrong to me.
The heart is the component of a person that lies at the source of choice. The intellect saying "I won't do that because it's a selfish thing and selfishness is a bad thing" is referencing the heart which informs the intellect that such and such is bad. The intellect on it's own can't arrive at a reason for moral badness. Utilitarian badness perhaps, but not moral.
- Are we straying miles off topic here? Perhaps you should make your points and we'll leave it at that?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by Granny Magda, posted 09-06-2011 10:18 AM Granny Magda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Granny Magda, posted 09-08-2011 11:01 AM iano has replied

  
Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 163 of 286 (632360)
09-07-2011 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GDR
08-18-2011 11:25 PM


1/ Am I as a Christian worshiping a different God than the God as worshipped by a fundamentalist Christian?
No.
God has been viewed in many lights over the years but for the most part his message has been similar to what it is today, among Christians. The only real difference that I see, is that I am a much bigger fan of the New Testament Jesus-God of love, than the Old Testament Jewish-War-God of power and wrath.
2/ What effect do these two different views of the Christian God have on our world view as individuals today?
I guess I was supposed to answer yes on the 1st one. I’ll take a stab anyway.
I think the wrath in the OT gets misrepresented as hate, and allows people in their minds to hate others and thus contradict the new testament. Also as always there is the Sola Scriptura crowd whose view of God seems highly ordered and somewhat Jewish, really concentrating on the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. Taking what the bible says as literal representation of a thought, instead of thinking what does this passage mean and how does it teach us. I think if the Jews had a great afterlilfe plan, then the bible fanatics could be Jewish. I prefer the literary bible of myth and legend, with examples and stories that you have to decipher and learn from, rather than a set of laws on how to live your life.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

"Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and you've hurt the Republican party much more than the Democrats have." Barry Au-H2O
I never learned from a man who agreed with me. --Robert A. Heinlein
Economic Left/Right: 6.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -0.46

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GDR, posted 08-18-2011 11:25 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by bluescat48, posted 09-07-2011 1:55 PM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 165 by GDR, posted 09-08-2011 12:53 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied
 Message 166 by Chuck77, posted 09-08-2011 1:22 AM Artemis Entreri has replied

  
bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 164 of 286 (632375)
09-07-2011 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by Artemis Entreri
09-07-2011 11:24 AM


I prefer the literary bible of myth and legend, with examples and stories that you have to decipher and learn from, rather than a set of laws on how to live your life.
If all Christians, looked at the Bible in that way, this topic would be moot, since than all Christians, would then, worship the same god.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Artemis Entreri, posted 09-07-2011 11:24 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 165 of 286 (632423)
09-08-2011 12:53 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by Artemis Entreri
09-07-2011 11:24 AM


Artemis Entrei writes:
God has been viewed in many lights over the years but for the most part his message has been similar to what it is today, among Christians. The only real difference that I see, is that I am a much bigger fan of the New Testament Jesus-God of love, than the Old Testament Jewish-War-God of power and wrath.
Just curious. How do you interpret the OT stories of a God advocating the slaughter of whole communities? What is the message that we should receive from stories like that?
I'm not sure how much of this thread you've read but in the end iano and I came to the conclusion that essentially we worship different gods.
Artemis Enteri writes:
I think the wrath in the OT gets misrepresented as hate, and allows people in their minds to hate others and thus contradict the new testament. Also as always there is the Sola Scriptura crowd whose view of God seems highly ordered and somewhat Jewish, really concentrating on the letter of the law over the spirit of the law. Taking what the bible says as literal representation of a thought, instead of thinking what does this passage mean and how does it teach us. I think if the Jews had a great afterlilfe plan, then the bible fanatics could be Jewish. I prefer the literary bible of myth and legend, with examples and stories that you have to decipher and learn from, rather than a set of laws on how to live your life.
I think we're singing from the same hymn book. It's great to have company.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.
Edited by GDR, : No reason given.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by Artemis Entreri, posted 09-07-2011 11:24 AM Artemis Entreri has not replied

  
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