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Author Topic:   Ontological arguments - where's the beef?
Dawn Bertot
Member (Idle past 520 days)
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 16 of 74 (632134)
09-05-2011 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
09-05-2011 4:48 PM


Re: my short response:
The MGB is not ruled out by what we do know, but there is nothing that we do know that rules it in as a possibility.

Your above comment seems contradictory even on the surface, does it not? However

if we are only speaking of possibilites, then the thing that would rule it in as a possibility would be the nature of things, change, disorder and chaos and eventually death

if we compare the universe to the deck of cards, then there is the very real consideration that those things mentioned are not consistent with anything eternal in character

So it seems if we are speaking of possibilites, then there is a very good possibility that the MGB does exist

If we are only considering base possibilites

Dawn Bertot


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 09-05-2011 4:48 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 10:30 AM Dawn Bertot has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 17 of 74 (632148)
09-06-2011 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
09-05-2011 4:48 PM


Re: my short response:
I can provide proof that it is possible to draw a King of Hearts from a standard deck of cards. Can anyone provide similar proof that an MGB could exist?

Are you suggesting that anything that we can't provide proof for exists in the realm of not being possible until it has been done? That seems an odd position to take, but ok.

I guess I can think of a whole heck of a lot of things that you can't prove are possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 09-05-2011 4:48 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 3:19 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 10:27 AM Bolder-dash has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 18 of 74 (632149)
09-06-2011 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Modulous
09-05-2011 4:48 PM


Re: my short response:
I should think then, by your terms, that things exist as either proven or not, and the whole use of the word "possible" is pointless. Its would become a meaningless idea. The word impossible could still be used, but there would be no need for the word possible at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Modulous, posted 09-05-2011 4:48 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 12:56 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 19 of 74 (632158)
09-06-2011 3:19 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 12:02 AM


Re: my short response:
I guess I can think of a whole heck of a lot of things that you can't prove are possible.

Such as?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 12:02 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:09 AM Larni has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 20 of 74 (632176)
09-06-2011 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Larni
09-06-2011 3:19 AM


Re: my short response:
Stacking ten Mazda sedans on top of each other. Eating four bananas, three cherries and one small mango in exactly 4 minutes and 23 seconds. Singing three verses of Fiddler on the Roof while standing within four meters of the Grand Canyon....

Do you need me to go on?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 3:19 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 8:20 AM Bolder-dash has responded
 Message 22 by Panda, posted 09-06-2011 8:22 AM Bolder-dash has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 21 of 74 (632178)
09-06-2011 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 8:09 AM


Re: my short response:
You are confusing an activity with an entity. There are things that cannot be done but we have evidence that they cannot be done. You start by saying not existing and then switch your meaning to cannot be done.

There is no evidence for or against Mod's Maximal being, only philosophical arguments.

So you point about Mazdas is about doing something (a verb), rather about an entity's (a noun) existence.

Two very different things.

Edited by Larni, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:09 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:52 AM Larni has responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2732 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


(1)
Message 22 of 74 (632179)
09-06-2011 8:22 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 8:09 AM


Re: my short response:
Bolder-dash writes:

Eating four bananas, three cherries and one small mango in exactly 4 minutes and 23 seconds. Singing three verses of Fiddler on the Roof while standing within four meters of the Grand Canyon....


I was standing next to the Grand Canyon the other day, wondering how I could prove it was possible to sing three verses of "Fiddler on the Roof" while standing within four meters of the Grand Canyon.
(Firstly, I realised that Fiddler On The Roof is not a song, but in fact a musical title, so I changed the task to singing "If I Were a Rich Man".)

As I settled into deep thought, I started idly singing (which is my normal behaviour while thinking).
Three verses of "If I Were a Rich Man" later, I realised how I could prove if it was possible to sing three verses of "If I Were a Rich Man" while standing within four meters of the Grand Canyon.

After which I settled down to eating my lunch: four bananas, three cherries and one small mango.
I was in a hurry so I finished my lunch in exactly 4 minutes and 23 seconds.

Bolder-dash writes:

Do you need me to go on?


It's probably best if you don't.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Edited by Panda, : No reason given.


Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR

Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:09 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:56 AM Panda has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 23 of 74 (632186)
09-06-2011 8:52 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Larni
09-06-2011 8:20 AM


Re: my short response:
Hold on a second, not only are you confusing the argument by throwing in unnecessary qualifiers, but if you were more careful about the reading of Modulous statement that I was replying to, he mentioned specifically an ACTIVITY! The concept of "things" being impossible but "activities" being possible is YOUR dichotomy, not his, and I frankly don't know why you are attempting to make some distinction. If Mod wanted to say that there can be the possibility of something occurring without evidence, but there can't be the possibility of something existing without evidence, than this is an entirely different argument for him to make. But disregarding that, you are still all over the place with this reply.

There is no evidence (according to Mod's point) that one can or can not stack 10 Mazadas on top of each other. Therefore it can not be assumed to be possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 8:20 AM Larni has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 9:24 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 9:27 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 24 of 74 (632187)
09-06-2011 8:56 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Panda
09-06-2011 8:22 AM


Re: my short response:
Oh Panda, I am so sorry for you that you are unable to see a philosophical point. there is little that can be done for you in that case I am afraid.

I will give Modulous credit for being smart enough able to see the mental conundrum of not being able to say anything is possible until it is proven to be so-in his reasoning.

Your reply has no meaning however.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Panda, posted 09-06-2011 8:22 AM Panda has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Panda, posted 09-06-2011 9:43 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


(3)
Message 25 of 74 (632194)
09-06-2011 9:24 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 8:52 AM


Once more with feeling.
Mod writes:

I can provide proof that it is possible to draw a King of Hearts from a standard deck of cards. Can anyone provide similar proof that an MGB could exist?

Here Mod draws the distinction between doing and being.

Mod writes:

I question the claim that it is possible that a maximally great being exists, and want to see the argument, along with the evidence which confirms it is possible.

As far as I can see from this post Mod is clarifying he is describing an entity, not an activity.

B-d writes:

I guess I can think of a whole heck of a lot of things that you can't prove are possible.

My understanding is that you were follwing Mod's point of an entity, here.

Larni writes:

Such as?

Here I ask for an example of an entity (following on from my understanding of Mod's point and your reply).

B-d writes:

Stacking ten Mazda sedans on top of each other. Eating four bananas, three cherries and one small mango in exactly 4 minutes and 23 seconds. Singing three verses of Fiddler on the Roof while standing within four meters of the Grand Canyon....

These are activities, rather than entities.

Frankly the OP talks about an entity from the outset. It is not until you post about Mazdas that there was a change from a maximal great being to someone doing something.

So again I ask the question: such as?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:52 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 26 of 74 (632195)
09-06-2011 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 8:52 AM


Re: my short response:
There is no evidence (according to Mod's point) that one can or can not stack 10 Mazadas on top of each other. Therefore it can not be assumed to be possible.

Rather than assume it is not possible one should say we do not know at this point in time if it is possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:52 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 2732 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 27 of 74 (632198)
09-06-2011 9:43 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 8:56 AM


Re: my short response:
Larni has done a more than adequate explanation of why you are wrong.

TBH: I could write the list of things that you are correct about on the back of a postage stamp using a crayon.


Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR

Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 8:56 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 28 of 74 (632203)
09-06-2011 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Bolder-dash
09-06-2011 12:02 AM


Re: my short response:
Are you suggesting that anything that we can't provide proof for exists in the realm of not being possible until it has been done?

No. I'm suggesting that if one asserts something is possible, one needs to support that it is in fact possible with evidence.

I guess I can think of a whole heck of a lot of things that you can't prove are possible.

And so it would be right to challenge anybody that claims they are possible.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 12:02 AM Bolder-dash has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Bolder-dash, posted 09-06-2011 10:37 AM Modulous has responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 1124 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 29 of 74 (632204)
09-06-2011 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Dawn Bertot
09-05-2011 9:18 PM


Re: my short response:
The MGB is not ruled out by what we do know, but there is nothing that we do know that rules it in as a possibility.
Your above comment seems contradictory even on the surface, does it not?

No. It is neither ruled out nor ruled in. Nothing we know says that it is impossible and nothing we know says it is possible.

if we are only speaking of possibilites, then the thing that would rule it in as a possibility would be the nature of things, change, disorder and chaos and eventually death

That doesn't imply God is possible.

So it seems if we are speaking of possibilites, then there is a very good possibility that the MGB does exist

Because there are things that exist that are not consistent with an eternal character? I'm sorry that is a non-sequitur.

If we are only considering base possibilites

What is a base possibility?

Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-05-2011 9:18 PM Dawn Bertot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dawn Bertot, posted 09-06-2011 4:31 PM Modulous has responded

  
Bolder-dash
Member (Idle past 2650 days)
Posts: 983
From: China
Joined: 11-14-2009


Message 30 of 74 (632205)
09-06-2011 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Modulous
09-06-2011 10:27 AM


Re: my short response:
No. I'm suggesting that if one asserts something is possible, one needs to support that it is in fact possible with evidence.

What evidence could one give of something being possible, without actually demonstrating something to be? If you have already shown something to "be" why would one need the redundant concept of "being possible" when the definition you are presenting for being possible is showing that it IS?

"Possible" becomes a moot point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 10:27 AM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Larni, posted 09-06-2011 11:09 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 32 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-06-2011 11:20 AM Bolder-dash has not yet responded
 Message 35 by Modulous, posted 09-06-2011 12:48 PM Bolder-dash has not yet responded

  
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