Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 0/13 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Do Christians Worship Different Gods?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 181 of 286 (632727)
09-09-2011 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by jar
09-09-2011 2:15 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
The Bible says you have the knowledge to judge right from wrong and the charge to do so.
At first this may seem like a nice consolation, but after thinking about it over lunch, I think it undermines my point that I am making to iano.
My point is that we don't need a god to tell us what to think about genocide. The consensus that genocide is in fact wrong is plenty good enough, however 'nonauthortative' that might be under some contrived logical system.
Claiming that justification for our morality comes from the Bible is exactly the fallacy that iano is making when he shifted the discussion to how I can't create my own morality because I am sinful. I rejected it when iano did it as an argument and I also reject it now even if it is in support.
We don't know right from wrong because god says so, we know it because we get to decide how to shape the one and only reality that we have.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by jar, posted 09-09-2011 2:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 182 by jar, posted 09-09-2011 5:54 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 183 by iano, posted 09-09-2011 5:57 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 184 by Panda, posted 09-09-2011 6:14 PM Jazzns has not replied
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 09-10-2011 8:54 PM Jazzns has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 182 of 286 (632730)
09-09-2011 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Jazzns
09-09-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
That's correct, you do not need a god to tell you what to think about genocide.
The reason to consider the story is that iano is making claims based on the collection of stories and this particular story says that you yourself have the capability to know right from wrong and even can see when God is wrong.
The great gift in the Garden of Eden story is that god is not needed at all when it comes to morality, man has the same capabilities as god in determining when something is right or wrong.
Something is not right or wrong because God says it is right or wrong, but because man knows it is right or wrong and the Bible tells me so.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Jazzns, posted 09-09-2011 4:46 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 183 of 286 (632731)
09-09-2011 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Jazzns
09-09-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Jazzns writes:
At first this may seem like a nice consolation, but after thinking about it over lunch, I think it undermines my point that I am making to iano.
My point is that we don't need a god to tell us what to think about genocide. The consensus that genocide is in fact wrong is plenty good enough, however 'nonauthortative' that might be under some contrived logical system.
The consensus would be arrived at because all have been equipped by God with a knowledge of good and evil in order that they would conclude genocide wrong (goes the argument). And sufficent numbers haven't descended to the pit which would permit a person to embark on genocide.
A flaw appears in the consensus when folk re-direct God's steerage as to how it is men should behave w.r.t. each other so as to inform them how it is God should behave with men.
At the very least, the category difference should cause a person to pause..
-
Claiming that justification for our morality comes from the Bible is exactly the fallacy that iano is making when he shifted the discussion to how I can't create my own morality because I am sinful. I rejected it when iano did it as an argument and I also reject it now even if it is in support.
Did I suggest you can't create your own morality? I imagine I would have said you can construct any morality you like, justifying it in any way you like ("utility" and "as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" are two commonly heard compasses). I do precisely the same as you (in my choosing the bible as my compass)
The question is whether either will stand up to scrutiny. What happens if your justification is washed away like a house built on sand. I'm not saying I can prove that will occur. But it can certainly occur.
-
We don't know right from wrong because god says so, we know it because we get to decide how to shape the one and only reality that we have.
Leading to the inenviable position where what's right for collective-you is right (for collective-you).
I'll try get to your other post over the weekend. Cheers..
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Jazzns, posted 09-09-2011 4:46 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Jazzns, posted 09-12-2011 10:16 AM iano has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 184 of 286 (632733)
09-09-2011 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Jazzns
09-09-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Jazzns writes:
My point is that we don't need a god to tell us what to think about genocide.
But doesn't:
"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"
mean that we don't need god to tell us what to think about genocide - as we already know what is right or wrong?
God didn't give us the ability to discern good from evil - we took it (as we didn't know good from evil).
And now we are able to judge the actions of god, including when he commits genocide.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Jazzns, posted 09-09-2011 4:46 PM Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 09-09-2011 7:06 PM Panda has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 185 of 286 (632741)
09-09-2011 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 184 by Panda
09-09-2011 6:14 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Panda writes:
But doesn't:
"Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil"
mean that we don't need god to tell us what to think about genocide - as we already know what is right or wrong?
God didn't give us the ability to discern good from evil - we took it (as we didn't know good from evil).
And now we are able to judge the actions of god, including when he commits genocide.
You seem to be assuming that because you've been given (or have taken) s knowledge of good and evil, you yourself are a balanced judge - able to examine yourself against that knowledge,
For such an assumption is the term "suppression of truth" coined. As in the ability to engage in suppression..

This message is a reply to:
 Message 184 by Panda, posted 09-09-2011 6:14 PM Panda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Panda, posted 09-09-2011 7:11 PM iano has not replied

  
Panda
Member (Idle past 3713 days)
Posts: 2688
From: UK
Joined: 10-04-2010


Message 186 of 286 (632743)
09-09-2011 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by iano
09-09-2011 7:06 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
iano writes:
You seem to be assuming that because you've been given (or have taken) s knowledge of good and evil, you yourself are a balanced judge - able to examine yourself against that knowledge,
Do we or do we not have the ability to know good and evil?
According to the bible - we do.
But maybe you disagree?
I look and see the evil that god has done.
This is not a judgement - it is an observation.
iano writes:
For such an assumption is the term "suppression of truth" coined. As in the ability to engage in suppression..
Surely, suppression of truth would be evil and I would be able to recognise it.
Or are you saying that we don't have the ability to know good and evil?
Or are you accusing me of suppressing the truth?
I think your response was intentionally vague.
Please try to be specific.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.
Edited by Panda, : No reason given.

Always remember: QUIDQUID LATINE DICTUM SIT ALTUM VIDITUR
Science flies you into space; religion flies you into buildings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by iano, posted 09-09-2011 7:06 PM iano has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 187 of 286 (632751)
09-09-2011 8:16 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by iano
09-02-2011 2:14 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
I don't think you're arguing because you feel the Midianites were hard done by. I think you're arguing because you would object to God killing you on account of your sin [...] Can I suggest that the root of your objection lies in your not feeling that your sin warrants death at God's own pleasure?
And yet I believe you'll find that Jazzns objects to genocide whether it is attributed to Stalin, to Hitler, or to your imaginary friend. We do not need some special psychological explanation for why Jazzns objects to the particular genocides that you so blandly lay at the door of your god, because Jazzns always objects to genocide.
If anyone requires explanation, it is the man who objects to genocide when it's committed by Stalin or Hitler but who excuses it when he thinks it's the whim of the invisible wizard of whom he's a self-confessed fanboy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by iano, posted 09-02-2011 2:14 PM iano has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 286 (632753)
09-09-2011 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by GDR
08-19-2011 11:13 PM


Re: Understanding Different Dispensations
GDR writes:
So you are saying that God not only sanctioned but encouraged genocide in order that the early Jews could hold on to a piece of real estate. (How well did that work by the way?) You then also must agree that the quote from Deuteronomy was also from God and that God decreed that a rebellious child should be stoned by all of the men in the town. You also believe that God encouraged capital punishment for those who broke the Sabbath laws.
No. What I am saying is that God sanctioned genocide on pagan cultures to cleanse a tiny portion of land upon which Jehovah, for himself of whom idolatrous cultures rival, could establish a nation which is to be his messianic kingdom on planet earth to come into fruition in our end times which we observe, i.e. the phenomenal restoration of the nation of Israel after having been scattered globally for 19 plus centuries.
GDR writes:
Now however God tells us that all of that stuff is no longer valid and we are to love our neighbors as ourselves, and that we are to love our enemies.
Exactly! The genocide was to apply to one tiny spot on planet earth: Canaan, which became Israel by Jehovah's providence, the messianic piece of real estate which Jehovah was to sanction for the prophesied restoration of his people, the Jews.
GDR, this is all evidenced by the fact that we are the privileged generation to witness this phenomenal fulfillment of prophecy.
GDR writes:
So what are we left with.
1/ We have a god who changed his mind.
2/ We have a god who sanctions killing and destruction then, but says that the situation doesn't call for it right now. He'll get back to us if it becomes necessary again.
3/ We have a god who did what was necessary then, (apparently to no avail at least on an on-going basis) but with the new agreement he says it is no longer the route to go.
4/ We have a god who was misrepresented by the early Jews and has always maintained the his way for us is the way of love, peace, mercy etc.
Not at all. This is what I meant when I told you that your problem was that you are a Biblical novice who has no clue as to the dispensations and to the fact that what was sanctioned by Jehovah applied only to one tiny nation; the nation of Israel, his proposed messianic nation.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by GDR, posted 08-19-2011 11:13 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 189 by jar, posted 09-09-2011 8:52 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied
 Message 190 by GDR, posted 09-10-2011 2:48 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-12-2011 8:43 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 197 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-12-2011 11:42 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(2)
Message 189 of 286 (632754)
09-09-2011 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by Buzsaw
09-09-2011 8:45 PM


Re: Understanding Different Dispensations
Buz writes:
No. What I am saying is that God sanctioned genocide on pagan cultures to cleanse a tiny portion of land upon which Jehovah, for himself of whom idolatrous cultures rival, could establish a nation which is to be his messianic kingdom on planet earth to come into fruition in our end times which we observe, i.e. the phenomenal restoration of the nation of Israel after having been scattered globally for 19 plus centuries.
Then that god has been weighed and found wanting, unworthy of either worship or respect and should be opposed by any moral individual.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2011 8:45 PM Buzsaw has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 190 of 286 (632774)
09-10-2011 2:48 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Buzsaw
09-09-2011 8:45 PM


Pagan gods
GDR writes:
So you are saying that God not only sanctioned but encouraged genocide in order that the early Jews could hold on to a piece of real estate. (How well did that work by the way?) You then also must agree that the quote from Deuteronomy was also from God and that God decreed that a rebellious child should be stoned by all of the men in the town. You also believe that God encouraged capital punishment for those who broke the Sabbath laws.
Buzsaw writes:
No. What I am saying is that God sanctioned genocide on pagan cultures to cleanse a tiny portion of land upon which Jehovah, for himself of whom idolatrous cultures rival, could establish a nation which is to be his messianic kingdom on planet earth to come into fruition in our end times which we observe, i.e. the phenomenal restoration of the nation of Israel after having been scattered globally for 19 plus centuries.
First off Buzz you only answered the part about the genocide and discarded the other pagan attributes of the god that you believe in.
Frankly however I find the part you did answer very strange. Firstly you claim that God wanted the people he loved to engage in the slaughter of women and children. This is the God we call Father. Now as we are created in His image I have to assume that you would be quite content to see your children or grandchildren go into some town in Iraq and by their own hands slaughter the men, women and children of that town. The fact that this would no doubt scar them for life I have to assume would be inconsequential. I believe in a God that actually cares for us.
Following that of course we can get into more modern times and look at Jewish history since the OT period. We have to remember that these are the people chosen by God to be the carriers of His truth to the world; the people God loved. By your understanding then God has allowed the nation He loved to be persecuted throughout the world, culminating in the holocaust just so that the western world would exhibit mercy and create a nation for them.
Buzsaw writes:
Not at all. This is what I meant when I told you that your problem was that you are a Biblical novice who has no clue as to the dispensations and to the fact that what was sanctioned by Jehovah applied only to one tiny nation; the nation of Israel, his proposed messianic nation.
Well Buzz I may not have your years of experience studying the Bible trying to discern hidden meanings that don't exist, and not seeing the forest for the trees
The problem with the early Jews as we see it evidenced in the OT stories is that they continuously allowed paganism to seep into their worship of Yahweh. They kept trying to turn Yahweh into a warrior king like the gods they saw their pagan neighbours worshipping. It was all about land and power. Still God kept trying to bring them back to be a people that would reflect His love to the world but they kept on insisting that He would be with them conquering their neighbours.
They also, like you kept trying to pin Him down. They created laws that came from their own ideas so that they would be able to have definite answers. You have decided that the Bible is essentially dictated by God. You have no grounds for doing that whatsoever. You just want the Bible to read that way so you can announce that you have this inside track to God and then announce things like the ludicrous suggestion that God deliberately caused a storm to devastate Joplin Mo. because Obama hadn’t supported Israel the way you figured he should have.
I suggest to you that you are allowing pride to cloud your thinking and you are doing exactly what the early Jews kept doing, which was to allow paganism to form their image of God. A god that utilizes genocide and slaughter, a god that wants difficult children and people that someone decides have broken Sabbath laws etc to be communally stoned to death is a pagan god. It is not the God that commands us to love our neighbour. It is not the God that Jesus called Father. It is not the God I worship.
It all reminds me of a line in a song by Don Francisco which is, it doesn’t matter that you know the Bible if it’s all just in your head — the thing I need to ask you is have you done the things I said? You may have a lot of knowledge of the words of the Bible but I humbly suggest that you have little understanding of it. But then of course I’m just a novice.....

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2011 8:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 191 of 286 (632872)
09-10-2011 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Jazzns
09-09-2011 4:46 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Jazzns writes:
My point is that we don't need a god to tell us what to think about genocide. The consensus that genocide is in fact wrong is plenty good enough, however 'nonauthortative' that might be under some contrived logical system.
Claiming that justification for our morality comes from the Bible is exactly the fallacy that iano is making when he shifted the discussion to how I can't create my own morality because I am sinful. I rejected it when iano did it as an argument and I also reject it now even if it is in support.
We don't know right from wrong because god says so, we know it because we get to decide how to shape the one and only reality that we have.
Thanks for the really well thought out posts. (Honestly, I'm not just trying to butter you up here. )
I agree that we can't claim justification for our morality from the Bible as we can see that iano and others seem to be able to understand it in such a way that they justify a god who sanctions genocide.
However, you also say that we don't need a god to tell us right from wrong. My point would be that He already has. It is my view that this understanding of right and wrong is part of the basic human nature which comes from God. Obviously that is just my subjective opinion and others hold the subjective opinion that the idea of right and wrong is something that developed through cultural or social means. To believe the latter though does require us to believe that morality has developed from a non-moral, and by extension non-intelligent, source. That just seems to me to be unlikely.
In the end we don't actually know whether we know right from wrong because of God or not, but I agree that we get to decide how we shape the reality that we experience. IMHO that is the freedom that God has given us.

Everybody is entitled to my opinion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Jazzns, posted 09-09-2011 4:46 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by Jazzns, posted 09-12-2011 10:36 AM GDR has replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 192 of 286 (633047)
09-12-2011 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by GDR
09-08-2011 2:14 PM


Re: Do Jews, Muslims and Christians Worship Different Gods?
Hi GDR, sorry for the delay in reply;
You keep wanting some kind of human legal system that keeps you on the right side of the law.
Yeah, I guess I do. If the stakes are as high as Christianity alleges, then I don't see that as being unreasonable.
It isn't about keeping a set of laws to avoid punishment it is about instinctively choosing unselfishness and rejecting selfishness. We can if we want choose a life based on selfishness. It's our choice.
I applaud that sentiment, but I still think that, given the stakes, we deserve a clear delineation of that. The Bible doesn't provide it. In fact, the Bible can easily be used to make the exact opposite argument.
If God wants us to choose unselfishness on our own, then allowing the Bible (and all the other false teachings) to exist seems counter-productive at best and, if God had any role in inspiring the Bible at all, downright dishonest. I don't think that the methodology you describe is really compatible with the notion of a just God.
I don't pretend to know whether or not there are choices to be made after physical death but my point is that if someone chooses hell shouldn't God honour that choice?
Because it's not a real choice. It's not an informed choice. That makes it invalid.
There are always going to be those whose pride would make an eternity in that environment intolerable. Why would a loving God force them to endure that? Let them to carry on with their pride and lust for power and influence into an existence based on that.
What, you're telling me that they will prefer the everlasting lake of fire? That God is actually doing them a favour? You're kidding.
I contend that when you look at people who are always grasping for more wealth, power and influence looking for self gratification that there is never contentment in their lives.
I think that you're kidding yourself here. I'm sure that there are plenty of venal, cruel and greedy people who are very happy indeed with their lives.
They have created and chosen their own Hell and as I say, God will honour that choice.
That just makes no sense. They haven't created anything of the kind. God set the rules for this game, not humanity. You can't absolve him of responsibility. God is free to change the rules any time he likes. There is no need for Hell, personal or otherwise. It serves no purpose.
Hell is separation from God and we are the architects of our own hell.
You make it sound rather appealing. If I am the architect, I think I'll build a hell that has air conditioning.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by GDR, posted 09-08-2011 2:14 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by GDR, posted 09-12-2011 11:34 AM Granny Magda has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 193 of 286 (633051)
09-12-2011 8:43 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Buzsaw
09-09-2011 8:45 PM


Re: Understanding Different Dispensations
No. What I am saying is that God sanctioned genocide on pagan cultures to cleanse a tiny portion of land ...
Apparently gently pushing them out of the way was beyond his powers. After all, he's only omnipotent. Instead he had to delegate the task of removing them to the people who committed genocide by non-supernatural means such as hacking them to pieces and then wrote a book claiming that this was what a supposedly loving and omnipotent God wanted.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Buzsaw, posted 09-09-2011 8:45 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 194 of 286 (633076)
09-12-2011 10:16 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by iano
09-09-2011 5:57 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Did I suggest you can't create your own morality?
Yes!
It very much seems as that is the root of your argument! The way you are suggesting that my morality surrounding the value of life is invalid seems to be exactly that under some other reality, my own value judgements are illegitimate. Otherwise how else is genocide by your god acceptable?
If I have the wrong impression, then perhaps you should take that into account in your reply to my full post.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by iano, posted 09-09-2011 5:57 PM iano has not replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


(1)
Message 195 of 286 (633081)
09-12-2011 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 191 by GDR
09-10-2011 8:54 PM


Re: Everyone has their own god.
Thanks for the really well thought out posts. (Honestly, I'm not just trying to butter you up here. )
Thank you. I really do appreciate it.
I agree that we can't claim justification for our morality from the Bible as we can see that iano and others seem to be able to understand it in such a way that they justify a god who sanctions genocide.
However, you also say that we don't need a god to tell us right from wrong. My point would be that He already has. It is my view that this understanding of right and wrong is part of the basic human nature which comes from God. Obviously that is just my subjective opinion and others hold the subjective opinion that the idea of right and wrong is something that developed through cultural or social means. To believe the latter though does require us to believe that morality has developed from a non-moral, and by extension non-intelligent, source. That just seems to me to be unlikely.
In the end we don't actually know whether we know right from wrong because of God or not, but I agree that we get to decide how we shape the reality that we experience. IMHO that is the freedom that God has given us.
Let me just say that the reason your particular god is not compelling to me anymore is that he is basically unnecessary. If nothing in the universe can surprise us about the nature of god then the difference of the universe with and without god is exactly the same. Claiming his existence adds nothing to our reality.
When I receive a gift from someone, what makes it a gift (by definition) is that I recognize that it is something that I didnt have before. I KNOW that it is received. My life is now changed, if only a very small bit by the existence of the gift.
Morality has no such indication. Freedom has the exact opposite indication. Freedom to shape our own reality was earned by the blood and willpower of our human compatriots over the generations of our existence. There is no wrapping paper or ribbons to indicate that such things come from god.

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by GDR, posted 09-10-2011 8:54 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by GDR, posted 09-12-2011 3:44 PM Jazzns has replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024