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Author Topic:   Inductive Atheism
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 514 of 536 (629665)
08-19-2011 7:19 AM
Reply to: Message 513 by Chuck77
08-19-2011 7:00 AM


Re: It's all about your imagination.
So you are just as atheistic as me with regard to every single supernatural entity except one (or is it three in the case of Christianity - never quite sure).
Chuck writes:
You don't see why so many people testifying about Jesus means something?
What about the personal testimonies pertaining to Allah? Or Vishnu? Or all of the gods of ancient religions? What about the personal testimony of those who are convinced of the veracity of astrology? Crystal healing? Alien abduction? Scientology? Are these worth nothing to you?
The human mind is a wonderful thing Chuck. But it is deeply and demonstrably prone to inventing entities and phenomena which do not exist for reasons that have everything to do with being human and litle to do with the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 513 by Chuck77, posted 08-19-2011 7:00 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 515 by Chuck77, posted 08-22-2011 4:22 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 520 of 536 (630273)
08-23-2011 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 515 by Chuck77
08-22-2011 4:22 AM


Re: It's all about your imagination.
Straggler writes:
The human mind is a wonderful thing Chuck. But it is deeply and demonstrably prone to inventing entities and phenomena which do not exist for reasons that have everything to do with being human and litle to do with the truth.
Chuck writes:
I couldn't agree with you more.
Marvelous.
Straggler writes:
So you are just as atheistic as me with regard to every single supernatural entity except one.
Chuck writes:
Yeah, I am, and with Good reason, probably the same as you.
OK.
Chuck writes:
Now, we just need you to see that Christianity is real and that Jesus was a real person who died for your and my sins.
Dohhhh! Fell at the last hurdle. Let me ask you this: Which is more objectively evidenced:
A) The human ability and proclivity to invent supernatural beings OR
B) The actual existence of the God you believe in?
Chuck writes:
Yeah, it's a good misinformation strategy the devil's using to decieve people isn't it?
So you dismiss the subjective "evidence" for every supernatural belief except your own on the basis that they are Satanic deceptions. I assume you have some solid evidential basis for concluding that all other religions are the work of Satan?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 515 by Chuck77, posted 08-22-2011 4:22 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 521 by Phat, posted 08-23-2011 6:09 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 524 by Chuck77, posted 08-26-2011 6:36 AM Straggler has replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 527 of 536 (630559)
08-26-2011 8:42 AM
Reply to: Message 524 by Chuck77
08-26-2011 6:36 AM


Re: It's all about your imagination.
Chuck writes:
That's your problem Straggler, you need to see everything before you can believe it, why?
No I don't. I simply request that whatever method of knowing being applied is able to demonstrate that it leads to conclusions which we have reason to consider accurate and reliable. The methods of knowing you are applying amount to the same methods of knowing that have failed time and time and time again. The methods of knowing being applied to come to the conclusion laid out in the OP of this thread are demonstrably successful.
Chuck writes:
You know, some people actually just wake up one day and look out the window and say "look at all the evidence of a God".
And others do the same and conclude a different god to you. Others do the same and conclude the exact opposite. I could look out of the window and cite what I see as evidence for the existence of the matrix if I was so inclined. Or Last Thursdayism. Or any number of other baselessly conceived unfalsifiable alternatives.
Chuck writes:
Isn't nature itself subjective evidence to use in the case of God(s)?
That which can be cited as evidence of anything is evidence of nothing.
Chuck writes:
Well, not ALL are the work of satan of course, many are the work of men. I think you'll agree with that right?
We have lots of examples of those that are the work of men. There are no examples that we can reliably pin to Satan that I am aware of. Inductive reasoning (remember the thread topic?) suggests that all such concepts originate from the same source. Human imagination.
Chuck writes:
I can't prove to you God exists in the way you are asking...
I haven't asked you for proof. I don't think evidence can ever prove anything. The obsession with proving and disproving things is the obsession of the theist. I simply ask for evidence that is something more than your own deep conviction rebranded as "evidence".
Chuck writes:
BUT we have subjective evidence, what good is it if you never use that evidence?
What good is your subjective evidence if there is no way to distinguish the reliability and accuracy of the conclusions it leads to from blind random chance?
Chuck writes:
You are dismissing all of it and wanting God(s) to come knoocking on your door.
If God was genuinely knocking people's doors down we would have conclusive evidence of his existence.
Chuck writes:
Why can't you take my word for it? I've experienced it and am telling you God is real.
That you are convinced of this is not in doubt. That you be correct requires more than your conviction.
Chuck writes:
What you should be doing is asking me how I came to this conclusion and will i show you what to do that YOU can know it too. Why won't you? Are you afraid you might actually have a higher power to report to and mess up your independancy?
Not really. Depending which version of god we are talking about I would either be dismayed or overjoyed to hear that he actually exists. But I don't think what I do or don't want has any bearing on reality.
If you have a method of knowing god that is able to demonstrate itself as a reliable and accurate method of knowing things then I am all ears.
Chuck writes:
BTW, this isn't at all about me trying to convert you, that's NOT why im here but it's a few valid questions IMO.
You can ask and I will answer.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 524 by Chuck77, posted 08-26-2011 6:36 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 530 of 536 (632668)
09-09-2011 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 528 by Chuck77
09-01-2011 12:19 AM


Re: It's all about your imagination.
Chuck writes:
Again, as I stated in the other thread, your job, is to provide the opposite, as in, Christians converting to Islam.
And these were provided in that other thread. Message 443 and upthread from that.
The question here is why you consider this to be of any relevance at all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 528 by Chuck77, posted 09-01-2011 12:19 AM Chuck77 has not replied

Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 534 of 536 (633129)
09-12-2011 5:37 PM


Summary
This thread has been railroaded by those who wish to deny that various concepts qualify as "supernatural". Those who sought to define the theory in question as "unfalsifiable" by playing semantic games which result in things like the Christian concept of Christ (the immaculately conceived, miracle capable son of an omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe who is himself as well as his dad) failing to qualify as "supernatural" by some absurd and self-serving (but unstated) definition.
Apart from being an exercise in definitional denial the entire point being made by those engaging such tactics is completely moot.
If we had a selection of godly beings lined up before us these debates regarding whether or not they falsify the theory in question might serve some philosophical purpose. But where are these controversial characters? Where is this array of maybe/maybe-not supernatural entities? Answer - They don't exist. Or if they do they are not very forthcoming about their existence. Certainly nobody here is even claiming to be able to present any verifiable evidence of such beings
So human imagination remains the only known source of such concepts. Anyone who doesn't think that alone is enough for a conclusion needs to re-read the OP (Message 1) and ask themselves how many other inductively derived scientific conclusions they are willing to deny on the basis that various conceivable but evidentially baseless and unfalsifiable alternatives might be true.
And no Chuck - Human belief isn't a form of evidence.....

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