Importance of Original Sin

The necessity of Genesis important not simply for explaining sin. Before this it is important for explaining the creation of man by God. Before sin and death come into the picture in chapter 3, two words are important about man in chapter one - image and dominion. "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of heaven and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth.

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And God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them." (Gen. 1:26,27) IMAGE and DOMINION. These two words are important in understanding the reason for the creation of man. Much could be said. But basically:1.) Man is in some way to EXPRESS God, look like God, manifest God and portray God.2.) Man is to reign on behalf of God. Man is to excercise dominion over God's creation as a "deputy authority" on behalf of God.Before any negative element of sin and death come in to spoil man God created man in His own image and with the intent that man would excercise dominion over the creation of God as a deputy authority for God.There is much more to come of course. Now to the matter of the entrance of sin and death to man.You should notice a few things. Firstly, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not only a tree of the knowledge of evil. Both good and evil are associated with the tree.I say this to highlight that the fundamental problem is not that of being bad or doing evil things. Before that there is the problem of man being independent from God, taking knowledge for the purpose of acting independently from God, apart from God.This was not the tree of dirt gambling or the tree of dirty moview or the tree of dirty stealing PRIMARILY. It was a tree for man to withdraw from God and be independent from God.From the problem of man withdrawing from God FOLLOWS death, dirtiness, and sin.God is eternal life. And death is more defiling and hateful to God then sin. Sin is an abomination to God. And sin needs forgiveness, cleansing, and stain removal from the character of man. But death is called "the last enemy" (1 Cor. 15:26) "Death, the last enemy, is being abolished" Death is the final enemy of God who is eternal and uncreated divine life. And the first warning of God to man about taking in the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, was that he would die. "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, of it you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:17) Death, I think, is more hateful to God than sin. But both sin and death are overcome in the salvation of God through Jesus Christ. You don't have to be a scholar but a humble reader with and open heart and a willingness to be changed by God, is more important.Notice that there were TWO trees specically mentioned. The tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From the rest of the Bible we can learn that God's eternal purpose in creating man was that man is a VESSEL, a "God shaped" living container. And the content that God sought to dispense into this living container was Himself as eternal life.The tree of life represented God dispensing Himself into man as life. That is into the container of man's created life God would pour Himself as the uncreated divine life. The tree of life represents God Himself coming into man that man and God may be mingled and united as one.Before God could dispense Himself into man as life from the tree of life - God's enemy rushed ahead to imitate God's way. Satan dispensed the Satanic nature into man and man became united with Satan. Man became Satanified.Remember before I said that "dominion" was one of the purposes for which God created man. "And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have DOMINION ..." (Gen. 1:26) Now I complete the picture a little more for you. God created man in His IMAGE as a kind of living vessel - a container. And He placed man before the tree of life. This represented that the man created in a "God shaped" manner was to receive God Himself into his human vessel. This is the eternal purpose of God.Man in God's image with God Himself united with man was for the kingdom of God - which included the defeat of any enemy of God. I believe that dominon over the creeping things in Genesis 1:26) implies dominion over the devil, his rebellious angels and the demons. This opposition party was apparently already nearby lurking to ruin God's purpose.Instead of man being united with God through the tree of life, he chose wrongly and Satan, sin and death entered into man corrupting man to the uttermost. But God would not give up man.And the rest of the Bible is the story of His great salvation to bring man back to Himself and to His eternal purpose. And He accomplishes this in the end through the dynamic salvation of Christ the Son of God. I told you above the there were two trees in the garden particularly mentioned. "And out of the ground Jehovah God caused to grow every tree that is pleasnt to the sight and good for food, as well as the tree of life in the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil." (Gen. 2:9) These two trees represented two paths or two sources.
One, the tree of life, represent the source of God Himself.
The other, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, represents the enemy of God, Satan as a source.This understanding requires the rest of the revelation of the Bible. Since the Bible's revelation is progressive, the clarity of this matter unfolds as the Bible progresses.Man is neutral and innocent in between TWO sources of existence. Man is not created evil. Man was very good. But man is innocent and between two paths of which he must choose. One is to unite with God. And the other is to draw away in a thrust of independence from God.All lives are dependent. Only God Himself is totally independent and autonomous. All other created beings must be dependent upon the Creator. To withdraw from this dependence is death. And it is to fall into the hands of the Rebel, the Devil. This one is temporary. He has no eternal future. He is to be destroyed. But he was very ancient and predated the creation of man.The eternal fire was prepared for the devil and his angels - " ... Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matt. 25:41b) The eternal "trash can" of the "eternal fire" was created not for man but for the devil and his angels. So man needs to be saved from being joined to Satan or he will end up where his leader ends up. We will go with our leader - either with the Son of God to His glorious eternal destiny to express God and reign for God or with the devil to the eternal punishment for his sins and his bringing death into God's creation. The term is not in the Bible. Actually the term "the Fall" is also not in the Bible. There is really a successive series of falls in Genesis. But the theological concept of "the Fall" is used by Bible students. And the theological concept of "Original Sin" though not a biblical term, is used by some Bible students.If we did talk about Original Sin we could also talk about Original Righteousness. For it is Christ's act of obedience which saves man from Adam's act of disobedience.I have heard a lot of mention of "Original Sin". I have not heard much mention of "Original Righteousness". But Romans chapter five compares Adam and Christ as the TWO important heads of the human race. Adam and Christ are the two Originals who set the course of either man's downfall or man's salvation.Christ is called "the second man". And Christ is called "the last Adam" . And this last Adam became in a form, after His resurrection, in which He could enter into man as divine life: "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) So the second man, the last Adam, not only went to the cross to accomplish redemption from sin. He also resurrected bodily and became in addition a life giving Spirit - the Christ Who can come into man as eternal life. The Spirit of Christ can enter into our innermost being to live in us.He is the reality today of the tree of life.

Interesting that I cannot find to word "repent" anywhere in the Gospel of John.But I find "believe/s" quite often in that gospel.

Paul spoke of Christ the same way that Christ spoke of Himself, that is as a Living Spirit that could enter into people's actual spiritual being.Let's compare some of Christ's words to Paul's way of repeating the exact same manner: Christ - " If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father with love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

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The Apostle Paul -

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"But if Christ is in you ... " (Rom. 8:10)
"Jesus Christ is in you ..." (2 Cor. 13:5)
"Christ in you, the hope of glory" ( Col. 1:27)
"Christ make His home in your hearts through faith" (Eph. 3:17)
"Christ is formed in you ..." (Gal. 4:19) As you can see Paul echoed Jesus Christ in the teaching that Jesus could come into His followers and live in and through them. Christ - "And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." ( Matt. 28:20)

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The Apostle Paul -

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"The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all" (2Thess. 3:18)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you." (1Thess.5:28)
"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit" (Phil.4:23)
"The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers ..."
(Gal. 6:18)
"But the Lord stood with me and empowered me ... "(2Tim.4:17) As you can see Jesus Christ said He would be with His disciples.
And Paul repeats that Christ and His empowering grace is with the believers, with thier spirit, the innermost kernel of their being. The enjoy Christ Himself as grace.Paul was so faithful to pioneer into the experience of all that Christ taught and explain the way further to the church.\[b\] Christ - "In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you." (John 14:20)The Apostle Paul -"For as many as have beeb baptized into Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27)"But now in Christ Jesus you who were once far off have become near in the blood of Christ: (Eph. 2:13)"Paul and Silvanus and Timothy to the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ ..." ( 1 Thess 1:1)" ... the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess. 1:1)" ... you have heard Him and have been taught in Him as the reality is in Jesus" (Eph. 4:21)" ... I say and testify in the Lord" (Eph. 4:17)" ... I, the prisoner in the Lord" (Eph. 4:1)" ... for you are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:28)" ... but as out of God, before God we speak in Christ" ( 2 Cor. 2:17) \[/b\]As you can see Paul speaks of Christ the living Lord as the realm and the sphere within whom he, his co-workers and all the saints live.Praise the Lord for such a faithful servant of Christ.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Original Sin ? So what is the Original Sin ?Before Adam and Eve sinned, Satan sinned. Had Satan not sinned he would not have been there to tempt Adam and Eve to sin.Jesus says that Satan is the father of lies: " You are of [your] father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks it out of his own [possessions;] for he is a liar and the father of it." (John 8:44)

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So the devil, the father of lies can only speaks lies. There is little question that the murderer from the beginning does not mean Cain the first murderer. But it speaks to the evil one who prompted Cain to commit the first murder - the devil. From the beginning surely means from the history of man in Genesis, the beginning.

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So whose is the so called Original Sin ? The father of lies spoke this lie to Eve -

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"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die! For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will become like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:5) Of course the worse kind of lie is the lie which contains a little truth. Their eyes were opened. And in some sense they did become like God, for God Himself said that: "and Jehovah God said, Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil ..." (Gen. 3:22) That part was true. But that they would not die was the most damnable lie. And the devil, the father of lies, as a snake or through a snake or with a snake (it really doesn't matter) - somehow with serpent the lie was told.Since the lie was a sin and it preceeded the sin of Adam and Eve, we might well describe "Original Sin" as originating in Satan sometime before the creation of man. I doubt that Genesis 3:5 was the first and original sin in God's creation.Eve said " ... the serpent deceived me, and I ate" (v.13) Before the serpent deceived Eve he had deceived one third of the angels of God to follow him in his rebellion against God - "And the great dragon was cast down, the ancient serpent, he who is called the Devil and Satan, he who deceives the whole inhabited earth ..." (Rev. 12:9) Only a fool cannot see the unity of the revelation of the Bible - that "the ancient serpent" must refer to the deceiving serpent in the Genesis account. He is the Devil and Satan. And in Revelation 12:1 his tail (probably representing deception) drags away one third of the angels of God: "And another sign was seen in heaven; and behold, there was a great red dragon ... And his tail drags away the third part of the stars of heaven, and he cast them to the earth ..." (See Rev. 12:1) So whose's really is the so-called "Original Sin" ? Satan sinned and seduced God's creature man, to sin as well.Don't listen to the fools who try to divide Revelation from Genesis as if they have nothing to do with each other. And it really is not that important to locate the original sin. Sin has to be dealt with through God's salvation.So Jesus also said that the devil was the murderer from the beginning. Satan as sin was crouching near the heart of Cain in order to capture him as prey for Satan's evil purpose: " And Jehovah said to Cain, Why are you angry, and why has your countenance fallen?

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If you do well, will not [your countenance] be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him." (Gen. 4:6,7) God speaks of SIN here as a kind of personified evil person, crouching and with a desire. This evil personified sin is something which Cain must master.This surely speaks of the Satanic nature of sinning entering into man. And the passage reminds of Roman chapter 7 where Paul lays bare the plight of man struggling to keep the law of God.One should read Romans 7 to see how Paul speaks of sin dwelling in the members of our body, deceiving, seeking opportunity, making us captive, etc. How much Romans 7 is like Genesis 4:6,7.The countenance of Cain was downcast. This is a humiliation to Cain. For man was created to express God in His glory, His splendour, and His majesty. But sinning soils man's expression. And when man is convicted by God as all sinners eventually must be, his countenance falls. This falling of the countenance is a defiling of the expression man is created to display. And it is a humiliation to man to be downcast because of the guilt of sinning.Christ is the Savior to deal with both the guilt of sin and the power of sin. Christ is also the Savior to recover the glorious expression for which man was created. His redeeming blood cleanses the sinner from all sins, every sin, each sin. And His indwelling Spirit empowers man to learn to overcome sinning by blending with the Overcomer Christ - that is by abiding in Him as a living realm and sphere of divine life: "Abide in Me and I in you" (John 15:4) If you take a weak and sickly branch and graft it into a healthy tree, the healthy tree's life will flow into the branch and make it also healthy. So this analogy of Jesus is that the fallen man, having been redeemed and forgiven - justified through faith in Christ, should now ABIDE in Christ as a sickly branch is grafted into a wondefully healthy tree. "Abide in Me and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." Jesus Christ is ENTERABLE. Jesus Christ is an unusual Person within whom the believer can abide. We can have our life in communion with the resurrected and AVAILABLE Jesus.There is no Christian life apart from abiding in the resurrected, living, and available Jesus Christ who became a life giving Spirit: " ... the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) Whoever has ears to hear, hear.

In establishing the teaching that all mankind is under condemnation for sin Paul quotes the Old Testament Psalms and prophets of Judaism: "What then? Are we [Jews] better? Not at all! For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.

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Even as it is written,
"There is none righteous, not even one;
There is none who understands, there is none who seeks out God. All have turned aside; together they have become useless; there is none who does good; there is not so much as one.
Their throat is an opened grave; with their tongues they practice deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips;
Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.
Swift are their feet to shed blood,
Destruction and misery are in their ways,
And the way of peave they have not known.
There is no fear of God before their eyes"

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Now we know that whatever things the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped and all the world may fall under the judgment of God;

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Because out of works of the law no flesh shall be justified before Him; for through the law is the clear knowledge of sin." (Romans 3:10-20)

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Paul underscores that the whole world is under condemnation and judgment because of sin by quoting a combination of passages from the Psalms and the prophet Isaiah.Psalm 14:1-3 - Rom. 3:10
53:1-3 - Rom 3:10Psalm 5:9 - Rom 3:13
Psalm 140:3 - Rom. 3:13Psalm 10:7 - Rom. 3:14
Isa. 59:7-8 - Rom. 3:15Psalm 36:1 - Rom. 3:18In Old Testament Judaism David, after his failure in the adultery and murder involving Bethsheba and her husband, speaks of his conception and birth as being intimately connected to SIN. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5) The Psalmist in Old Testament Judaism also declares that no man can redeem himself or his brother because of his sins: "None can by any means redeem [his] brother or give to God a ransom for him for the redemption of their soul is costly and must be given up forever, that he would yet live always [and] not see corruption. "In Old Testament Judaism Solomon explains that God created man upright but man somehow became morally crooked with devices and tricks. This amounts to a realization of a FALL of mankind from uprightness into sin: " See, this alone have I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes." (Ecclesiastes 7:29) The oldest book in the Bible, Job, also speaks of man's nature of sinning: "How then can a man be righteous with God ? And how can one born of a woman be pure ? " (Job 25:4) And the prophet Jeremiah emphasizes that as natural to the leapard are his spots and to the Ethopian his dark complexion is the nature of sinners to sin: "Can the Cushite change his skin, Or the leopard his spots ? [Then] you also may be able to do good, Who are accustomed to do evil." (Jeremiah 13:23) The point in all this is not to make everyone feel bad.
Not is the point that God did not create a marvelous being in humanity.The purpose in its proper perspective is to prove that the Old Testament Judiasm and before, furnished ample ground for Paul to develop the concept of man's sinful nature rendering ALL under condemnation and causing ALL to be in need of divine redemption, let alone sanctification and transformation.This is as much virtual "Original Sin" concept as needed right from pre New Testament Judaism. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

All sinning is against God. Even that which is against a neighbor or against oneself is also against God.This is why when David acknowledged that his sin against Bethsheba and Uriah was ultimately against God: "Against You [and] You only have I sinned, And I have done what is evil in Your sight. Therefore You are righteous when You speak; You are clear when You judge." (Psalm, 51:4) Against God and against God only his sin was. That is David's conviction. The sin against the neighbor or against one's self is ultimately against God.Psalm 119 tells the same. "In my heart I have treasured up Your word that I might not sin against You, O Jehovah;" (Psa. 119:11) There is no such thing as a sin committed which is not committed against God Himself. And the sin commited against one's neighbor God says that He will repay and vengence belongs to Him. Deut. 32:35 - "Vengence is Mine and [so] is retribution ..." is what Paul quotes in instructing the NT believers to leave their vindication up to God: "Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but give place to the wrath [of God], for it is written, "Vengence is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord.

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But if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thristy, give him a drink; for in doing this you will heap coals of fire upon his head." (Rom. 12:19,20) In the OT time God limited the amount of payback an offended person could seek. That was His permissive will. His perfect will was that vengence and retribution belong to Himself alone because all sinning is actually against God. The Bible does not teach that we are sinners because we sin. Rather it really teaches that we sin because we are sinners. We are constituted with a sinning nature.The revelation of the Bible is progressive. And the sinning nature may be more brought out by the New Testament Apostle then in the OT prophets. However, I showed you that it was not altogether absent. The leapard not being able to change its spots and the Cushite not being able to change his skin color, were Old Testament utterances to show that sinner had a sin commiting NATURE.The progressive revelation of the Bible is to teach us. It is not as if God needs to be taught. God knows. God knews throroughly all along, man's condition. We require the progressive education. It is not that God needs to be taught about us.And in the Old Testament practice of circumcision, the idea is brought home that it is something of a NATURE attached to man which needs to be eliminated. The cutting off of part of the flesh in circumsicion was a sign that belonging to God's salvation was a matter of a nature being CUT OFF.Something had attached itself to man as a evil parasite. That is a SIN nature. Thought more light comes to us in the NT, even in the OT some light is shed upon the fall of man into this sin nature. It is not Paul's opinion. It is the revelation of God. That is how I take it. Romans is the oracles of God and not a faulty opinionate commentary on the Hebrew Bible.In Romans, we, whoever we are, are exposed as guilty by the fact that we judge others: "Therefore you are without excuse, O every man who judges, for in what you judge another you condemn yourswelf; for you who judge practice the same things." (Rom. 2:1) That the salvation may be presented to all mankind, all mankind is under condemntation. The self righteous are particularly guilty as seen in this previous verse (2:1-16). The religious are also specificially guilty as seen in 2:17-3:8.It is true, however, that occasionally, on a relative basis, the OT did say that this or that person was righteous. On one level, comparitively to others, one was said to be righteous.However, ALL have sinned. And this concept did not originate with Paul. Paul quoted as much from the Old Testament. It doesn't matter if we agree or disagree with it. Paul is tracing the history of mankind. It seems that he has opened before him the book of Genesis. And in chapter 5 it is quite obvious that he traces the intrance of sin and death into the world through Adam: "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all have sinned - " (Rom 5:12) SIN entered into the world through one man - Adam. So the Genesis account of the creation and fall of man is definitely Paul's basis for the passing of the sin nature into all mankind.SIN refers to that power within us that motivates us to commit sinful acts.SINS, [plural] refer to the particular individual sinful acts that we commit outwardly.Terms like "root of sin" or "source of sin" or "original sin" have been concocted by theologians. I don't know how fruitful it is to argue about such terms, including "Original Sin".If we want to differentiate clearly between the SIN man has and the sinful acts he commits the first 8 chapters of Romans are a big help. These chapters show us the significance of SIN as a kind of nature in the sinner.From chapter one through 5:11, only the word SINS is mentioned; SIN is never mentioned. But from 5:11 until the end of chapter eight, what is read concerns SIN rather than SINS. From chapter one through 5:11, Romans shows us that man has committed sins against God (whether private, self inflicting, or against the neighbor). Man is therefore a sinner before God.From Romans 5:12, Romans exposes something deeper. That is the SIN nature. Its healing is a matter of man being made ALIVE in the divine life. There is no mention of the dead being made alive prior to Romans 5:12.This is a brief word. Sins as acts need forgiveness. The Sin as nature needs a divine life to overpower it , swallow it up, terminate it, circumise it away, cross it out through the power of the Spirit of Christ the sinless Man who became life giving Spirit - " the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" ( 1 Cor. 15:45) . Paul as Christ's apostle, was completing the word of God: " .... I Paul became a minister .... of which I became a minister according to the stewardship of God, which was given to me for you, to complete the word of God." (See Col. 1:23,25) That is true. The atheist in his or her heart is certainly a fool. Paul is probably using the passage for those who act as if there is no God in addition to believing that there is no God.Some act as there is no fear of God for them. Some act as if there will be no reckoning. They think no one sees. They think God may see but doesn't care.Whether the basis for sinning is atheism or acting practically as there is no God (with not sense of the need for repentence and forgiveness) ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God.But the wonderful and gracious salvation is extended to all as well. I already conceded that on a relative basis, the bible does speak of this or that righteous one. Comparitively, to others in that generation, some were said to be righteous.Nevertheless, only Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was completely righteous.Job, Samuel, Noah, cannot be compared to the Son of God, though the OT did say such were relatively righteous. Maybe. It is discussable. My point was that both Jews and non-Jews were all under condemnation. The Apostle firmly establishes that point.And, as a Christian, I do not regard Romans as a error prone commentary on the Hebrew Bible. I regard it as the oracles of God as Genesis, Exodus or any other book in the Old Testament canon.As Paul said the Gospel was not received by him from man: "Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised Him from the dead."

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For I make known to you, brothers, [concerning] the gospel announced by me, that it is not according to man. For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." (Gal. 1:1,11,12) You're ignorant of the book of Romans for sure. "Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and this death passed on to all men becuse all have sinned. -" (Rom. 5:12) Adam was the first man created. His history and geneology is found in the book of Genesis. And Paul says through him sin and death came into the world.This is the basis for Paul establishing that there is a Second Man or the last Adam. "For just as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive." (1 Cor. 15:22) "For since through man [Adam] came death, through man [Christ] also came the resurrection of the dead." (1 Cor. 15:21) "So also it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living soul"; the last Adam became a life giving Spirit." (1 Cor. 15:45) "So then as it was through one offense unto condemnation to all men, so also it was through one righteous act unto justification of life to all men." (Rom. 5:18) "For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were CONSTITUTED sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be CONSTITUTED righteous." (Rom. 5:19) The theological phrase "Original Sin" is not really necessary to use. It is quite obvious that the Bible does trace the entrance of sin and death into the world through the first man Adam.We can simply go by what the Bible utters. We need not adopt the phrase "Original Sin". We should not try to twist away what Paul has revealed about the first man Adam, and his disobedience, with its result to mankind AND the second Man, the last Adam, and what His obedience does for believers.You have tried in vain to twist the teaching of the New Testament. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

However, I am not calling anyone "You knucklehead!" or "You Idiot!" or even "Dumb Fool!" in a perjorative way out of anger. I am not calling names to degrade or humiliate. I am pointing out the foolishness which, the word of God declared, not me.Jesus also said "And everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not do them shall be likened to a FOOLISH man who built his house upon sand." (Matt. 7:26, my emphasis) This is warning word out of love. This is not name calling. Likewise Paul would write \[b\]"Look therefore carefully how you walk, not as unwise, but as wise. Redeeming the timee, because the days are evil. Therefore do not be FOOLISH, but understand what the will of the Lord is." ( Eph. 5:15-17, my emphasis).This is an exhortation not to be "unwise", ie. not to be foolish or a fool. This is a word spoken in love not a hurtful word to humiliate.And Solomon, after speaking much about the plight of a fool, said that there was more hope for a fool then there was for a person who is wise in his own eyes (Prov. 26:12).So my agreeing with the Bible that a person actually thinking there is no God is a fool, is not name calling in anger to degrade. But God will be the judge, won't He ? Now, you should not try to use this sober warning against anyone saying "Amen" to Psalm 14:1 . Your first objection was clever but too mechanical. Your second objection is also clever. Christ recovers beyond what Adam lost. Christ does not simply recover to the point of innocence lost by Adam. Christ recovers to the point of the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose and endless kingdom."To the extent His kingdom and peace there shall be no end." (See Isa. 9)Are you judging "success" by numerical size ? The result of Adam's sin may be a larger number of fallen people. And I can't say that I know that. But if true, the outcome of the New Jerusalem is, to me, a greater success than the sin cursed world issuing from Adam.So I look at the matter qualitatively more than quantitatively. And quantitatively, the salvation of the second man, the last Adam, is pretty impressive anyway. At least John said he saw a crowd of the saved which no man could number ! "After these things I saw, and behold, [there was] a great multitude which no one could number, out of every nation and [all] tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the Lamb, ... And they cry with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb." (Rev. 7:9a,10)Now, this observation seems to not be about numbers but awareness somehow.This is not a matter of the unsuccessfulness of Christ's redemption. This is a matter of the need for the redeem's deeper knowledge. And I agree on one level.The worth of what Christ has done in "paying my mortgage" so to speak, will probably require eternity to appreciate. I don't think I know how effective and how deep this redemption is, even after being one rejoicing in it for over 30 years.The appreciation of the deepness and effectiveness of Christ's finished work DOES indeed make one feel like yesterday he knew very little. You have a point on one level.This is why when I do fail I am less surprised. God knows perfectly what I am. It is no surprise to Him. It is only a surprise to me because I still somewhat trust in the fallen Adamic nature.The positive side of this is that the trust in Christ as the indwelling Savior and Lord deepens and grows. The appreciation for the love and price paid by my Savior can only grow as I am gradually more enlightened by the Holy Spirit.Life grows. Divine life also grows. Being "born again" is not an end of a process but a beginnning. So all in all, Christ's salvation is far more impressive to me than Adam's failure. You would have to elaborate if you think you have something here.I go along with Paul about the "much more" of Christ's salvation. "But it is not that as the offense was, so also the gracious git is; for if by the offense of the one the many died, MUCH MORE the grace of God and the free gift in graceof the one man Jesus Christ have abounded to the many." (Rom. 5:25) "For if by the offense of the one death reigned through the one, MUCH MORE those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ." (5:17) " ... but where sin abounded, grace has super-abounded." (5:20) But I would not disagree that we Christians need "much more" appreciation of the "much more" . But we count Jesus Christ's work far more profound and impressive than Adam's fall.Why would you wish to exalt Adam above Christ anyway ?Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I think people sometimes define "Bible Study" based on what they are willing to study and not study in the Bible.We are talking about the effect of Adam's fall on all sinners. And Romans is the place in the Bible where we can examine that matter, in addition to Genesis.All the lawlessness against civilization's rules had root in man taking in the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That was a prohibition of God and not any human culture.While I cannot know all that this means, I know enough that this "fruit" brought man under the authority of God's enemy, poisoning him, corrupting him, and constituting man with some kind of evil element the nature of which, perhaps, our science cannot touch.But man took into himself a foreign element which brought him into a kind of Satanification. While there is much that I cannot explain about this, I can know that Christ and His salvation is the counter force for certain. And Christ is a living Person.Compare the work of SIN in Paul to the work of Christ the indwelling Spirit in Paul:SIN - "But if I do not will, this I do, it is no longer I that work it out but sin that dwells in me." (Rom. 7:20) Christ - "I am crucified with Christ, and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God who loved me and gave Himself up for me." (Gal. 2:20) Negatively, it is SIN that dwells in the sinner. Postively, upon receiving Jesus Christ as the "life giving Spirit" He became (1 Cor. 15:45), it is Christ who lives in the believer.Put another way, Christ living in the believer is the motion of GRACE. "But by the grace of God I am what I am; and His grace unto me did not turn out to be in vain, but, on the contrary, I labored more abundantly than all of them, yet not I but the grace of God which is with me." (1 Cor. 15:10) The indwelling living Person of Christ in Paul is the grace of God moving and empowering in Paul. It is the same with every believer. The grace of God is the enjoyment of Christ to be our inward empowering and enabling.So Paul's word that Christ with the believer's spirit is also the grace of Christ with the believer's spirit: "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." ( Phil. 4:23)"Grace be with all those who love our Lord Jesus Christ in incorruptibility" (Eph. 6:24)"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers, Amen." (Gal. 6:18) We are still studying the Bible. I know that you are fond of reading some kind of cultural sociology into Genesis. There is a limit to this kind of reductionism.
There is something divine in the account. And that touches the economy of God and the eternal purpose of God.This prohibition was not the typical moral prohibition of human societies. Adam was not commanded not to divorce, not to steal, not to do some bad thing in the typical sense.Adam was told to be careful what he ate. It communicates to all generations something about the danger of taking INTO man something which does not belong in man. This "fruit" brought the Satanic element into man and man began to express its Satanic source.The next account of Cain and Abel show how this "sin" was working in Cain - crouching, seeking opportunity. Cain must master it. But it is exceedingly strong.And by the time of Noah's flood we see God saying that He Himself is striving by His Spirit. But fallen man has become "flesh". "And Jehovah said, My Spirit will not strive with man forever, for he indeed is flesh; so his days will be one hundred twenty years." (Gen. 6:3) God's Spirit and man's human conscience were working against this evil force in man. But a judgment of God is the result and a salvation is needed from the guilt and power of this sin. The Bible's revelation is progressive and unfolding more and more throughout the 66 books.Perhaps you only see, and want to see, some sociological and cultural matters here, like hunter / gatherer concepts and so on.To a great extent what kind of Bible people have depends on what kind of people they are. And people tend to read into the Bible their interests.I have received a living Lord Jesus. I have come to see this living Lord in the whole Bible. I think the writers intended that also, that is to convey the living God to people. I will go back and look at the OP. But the BIBLE is the Old Testament and the New Testament.And the phrase (of which I would never insist has to be used ) "Original Sin" is a NT theological concept. But more to the point is that if you only have a "Jewish religion" view of Genesis, you are deficient on your understanding of Genesis. And someone like myself will point that out.Though you don't like it, I will point it out just the same. Some people who come to Bible Study to buy your product should be informed that it is not a good product in terms of the revelation of the whole Bible. The poster is "objective". The real intent is to oppose the Christian faith. And I may comment on this Public "Bible Study" that I noticed the intent and offer some correction here and there.Your comments about Paul were off. So even though the poster is "Jewish Only Bible Study" the potshots at Paul and frankly at Genesis too, may not go unchallenged. I don't know about that. The scheme of the FIRST and SECOND Man is very important to the New Testament.And I would say that the concept does not originate only with Paul. Jesus Christ, in the Gospel of John, gives a allegorical comparison between Himself and the brass serpent lifted in the wilderness.The poison of the serpents which was killing the Hebrews Christ compares with the sin which is causing man to be condemned and judged. He, Christ, is like the brass serpent lfted in the wilderness. To look upon that serpent was to be healed and saved from the poisoning death. And to believe into Christ is to be saved from eternal damnation and justified unto eternal life: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life.

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For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that every one who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life." (John 3:14-16) Though Adam is not mentioned, the context and the symbolism seem to indicate the poisoning of man at some point. It is not only a Jewish poisoning as if He speaks of failure in Egypt or the wilderness. But it is an analogy applied to all the world - "God so loved the world ...".All the world has this "serpent poison". And to believe into Jesus Christ is to be saved from God's judgment and justified into eternal life.So far from assigning such concepts as an Adamic fall to Paul alone, we have to notice that Jesus taught the same. Paul got it from Jesus and from the Scriptures. Paul did not invent it. He may have been eloquent to teach it. But he did not invent it.Brass is often a symbol of judgment. And for Jesus to compare Himself with the brass serpent suggest that He was judged in the form of Satan. In other words, Christ was made the recipent of the judgment of God which should fall upon Satan and sinners. He had the form of a sinful mankind yet not the actual nature. He knew no sin. But He came in the form of a fallen man.He came as the brass serpent to be lifted up on the cross and judged. The actual poisoned people, bitten by the real serpent of the Devil, may look upon this lifted up brass serpent, the Son of Man, and be healed and saved. We do have a breaking system. We have a conscience that convicts us. We have an internal breaking mechanism, thank God. Cain had one but ignored it.Though we do have a breaking system convicting us we do not have to power to ALWAYS go along with it. To the extent that we do, of course God knows. And God will bring that into account.But the fact of the matter is that in spite of our conscience, we simply cannot overcome this sin nature in ourselves. We need salvation from both the guilt of our sinning and the power of sin within us.But relatively speaking, some as much as they do, go along with the conscience sometimes. In Noah's day the conscience had been totally surpressed. And in some of the Canaanite societies also, the conscience had been totally supressed and the divine judgment was extensive and seemingly total, at least in this realm of physical life is concerned. We do not know of the eternal destiny of the Canaanites.Conscience is a God created breaking system that activated in fallen man. I believe that if we continue to listen to our conscience we should recognize the love and salvation in the Son of God and not resist His work to save us.Self righteousness should not be the result of the work of man's conscience, but repentance toward God. Cain did not master the indwelling evil. Did you miss that ?Not only he failed but he had NO REMORSE about his failure. He only had remorse for the degree of his punishment. He had absolutely no remorse and no repentance concerning his crime. The degree to which he had become hardened is noted by God. And the record is there to show the progressive falling away of man from God's goodness.It is BEFORE the crime of Cain, that he is told by God he must master the crouching sin: "And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and his desire is for you, but you must rule over him." (Gen. 4:7b)Instead sin ruled over Cain. Cain murdered Abel in jealousy. The offerings must have been atonements for the inevitable sinful failures of sinners. It is not as if there were no repentance and remedy for being mastered by the evil nature. There were the offerings.Perhaps Cain should have shown faith in offering a sin offering. Rather he went out from the presence of God caring only for human vengence. And he began to develope the world system without God. He built the first city that the Bible mentions (Gen. 4:16,17) No one said we are not responsible. But we also are no strong enough to overcome the sin nature. We have varuing degrees of striving against it. But no one can live up to the standard that God had for mankind. Jesus Christ alone is the One with Whom God is well pleased.To say, it is sin within me, driving me, is not to absolve myself from responsibility. We are responsible for not repenting when God opens a door of salvation. We are responsible for stubburnly trusting in our own self righteousness when it is so apparent the we fall short of the glory of God and need forgiveness.We are responsible not believing into the Savior when God points out the way of salvation. There is nothing in the New Testament teaching that the sinner is not responsible, in spite of the indwelling power of SIN. And I showed that it is not necessary to either use or defend the theological phrase "Original Sin".It is sufficient to show that Paul, in the fact and not after the fact, TEACHES that through one man sin and death came into the world. That is the ancient Greek text of his letter.That it was ignored for a while may be an argument. Many truths were neglected for a long time. And many truths were recovered after years of neglect. This is not the same as inventing "after the fact" as you suggest.Romans Five is not inserted after the fact. It is what Paul wrote. To repeat again - It is not necessary to either use or defend the theological phrase "Original Sin". And that some treatise in use of it may have gotten mixed with Greek philosophy, I would not deny.What is important to my study of the Bible is that Plato is not responsible for this: "For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were CONSTITUTED sinners, so also through the obedience of the One the many will be CONSTITUTED rigthteous." (Rom. 5:19, my emphasis)Paul, not Plato, said it is a matter of two constitutions and the tension between them. One issuing from Adam unto sin and death. And the other issuing from Christ issuing in righteousness and eternal life. Doesn't matter much. Romans pre-dates Augustine. And Paul elaborates much in his epistles about the grace and power of Christ to overcome sin and sinning.And Peter too speaks of the believers as partakers of the divine nature. They invented nothing. They built on what they received from Jesus.Augustine's writings I do not know in great detail. I suppose as any theologian he said some good things and made some mistakes. These theologians had thier various mixtures of some enlightened exposition with some probably less well taught concepts. I can't think of any perfect theologians.But you seem to using them as excuses to discount what is in the New Testament, which we Christians see as the they should be seen, the oracles of God.I mean I appreciate a impressive display of familiarity with the history of Christian theology. But I for one, will not be overwhelmed that what I plainly read in the New Testament is from Plato or Origen or Augustine per se. The church theologians may have commented on the NT and on Plato. There are some good and useful things in their studies as well as probably some less useful things.The letter of these church fathers are not part of the canon of the New Testament. And we can get along quite will with the Sciptures alone. This is neither to exalt these theologians too highly or dismiss them in contempt. This is neither extreme. This is simply a balanced attitude of seeing that they have their place and their human errors as well. Paul taught reward and loss suffered for moral living unto those for whom the problem of eternal salvation is settled in the affirmative.Paul didn't teach what some have called "Cheap Grace". This argument I have never seen made successfully.If you look up every intance of Paul's usage of the phrase "eternal life". I wager that the vast majority of them are spoken in the context of this "eternal life" being the ISSUE of LIVING in moral conformity with how Jesus lived.Don't take my word for it. Get out your Strong's Exhaustive Concordance and study Paul's usage of the phrase "eternal life. There is rarely any sense of it being a cheap and easy matter. Rather, if I recall right, it is usually the result of and the outcome of proper cooperation with God in living.It may be a case that much evangelical Christianity has stressed Justification By Faith to the extent of neglecting transformation and sanctification in living. That argument could be made.Don't blame that on Paul. Don't blame that on the New Testament. Well, you have repeated this a number of times. I will agree that there is no requirement of the New Testament upon salvation that one believe in Adam and Eve. No where did Christ teach that believing in what happened in Genesis was mandatory to receive salvation.I think your understanding is weaker to not realize some of these things. But I would never suggest that it was a requirement of receiving Christ.I came to Genesis only after learning that Jesus could be trusted. I eventually decided that if Genesis was good for Him it must be good. Through learning of Christ's unquestioned integrity, I came gradually to believe the rest of the Bible (with needed proper interpretations). Religion is not that positive a word to me. God and Christ are living. I don't think God is the God of religion. I think God is the God of reality.It is important to see the extensiveness of Who Christ is. He is not simply my individual loving Savior. Though He is personal, intimate, loving and certainly the Friend of sinners, He is much more.He is the Head of a whole new humanity. He is the Head of a new race in the similar sense that Adam was the head of human kind. Christ is what God intended by human being. Christ as the man mingled with God - the God-Man, is what God intended in placing the created man before Himself as divine life signified in the tree of life.Christ, as God and man united, is the center and circumferance of creation. He is the Second Man as the one into whose hands God has placed all dominion and authority. So it is crucial in appreciation of the extensiveness and all-inclusiveness of Christ, to compare Him to the first man Adam.And this comparison is biblical. It is important to Paul's most basic treatise on the nature of the Christian faith and church - the book of Romans.While the comparison between Christ and Adam is not a requiremnt to receive the divine life it is important to getting the needed vision of the all-inclusiveness and extensive vastnesss of Christ and His salvation, His kingdom.For personal piety alone, maybe it matters not too much. For a vision of God's eternal purpose it matters much. And Paul's ministry was not merely to produce scattered individual spiritual people. Paul was building up the Body of Christ for the kingdom of God.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

PD, I initially maybe misunderstood some of your post. I went back and made some corrections to these misreadings.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

The "creation story" shows God placing a protective angelic being of some sort with a menacing flaming sword to guard the way to the tree of life.Before Adam's disobedience there was no such barrier.
The account has Adam expelled from a paradise.
Before Adam's disobedience there was no problem.The account shows Adam running off to hide from God.
Previously they enjoyed a good fellowship.
Something happened and now there is a need for reconciliation.Before Adam had no worry of death.
After his sinning he knows that he is to die.
And the Scripture repeats again and again that this and that descendant lived so long "and he died".Adam was innocent. Whether he was holy in that innocence I am not sure. But he was neutral and innocent until he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. From that point I am confident to say that he was unholy. He could not correspond to God any longer. Though still loved of God, he was driven away from Paradise, the tree of life, and he has to die.Paul at this point is not even a twinkle in his mother's eye. This is not a matter of what Jews knew and what Gentiles know. There is a word which trancends the Jewish word here. That is the word of God.You need the New Testament to get Genesis as it is relevant to the salvation of MAN. In fact Genesis in these early chapters is not about the creation of Jews. It is about the creation on HUMAN BEINGS first.When you get to Abraham then you can talk about the real roots of the Jews. The Bible starts with Adam and not Abraham.And the salvation through Abraham has as its goal to turn around and gain the created race. The called race is for the gaining of the created race.That is all God's promise to Abraham - that in him all the nations of the world would be blessed. That is God's word. Paul is no where around at this time. Paul says that Adam was a type of the coming one. It is clear that there are TWO heads of humanity in history to Paul. There is Adam, the first man. And there is Christ the second Man or the last Adam.Using my imagination, perhaps if Adam had not sinned we would be in a Paradise talking about our great father Adam.As it is we who have been saved exalt Christ. And maybe if Adam is in the New Jerusalem we'll sit down with him and have a good talk with him.But the new Head of the new humanity which is the humanity with the life and nature of God Himself installed and imparted into their innermost being, is Jesus Christ.And I will repeat it in hope that one day your eyes will be opened - "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)That man Jesus Christ became AVAILABLE to all people in the form of the life giving Holy Spirit. We cannot see Him. But He is a divine life imparting Spirit. And receiving Him He head us up into a new race of man.The comparison of Adam to Christ is crucial to a proper view of the purpose of God.Individual piety may not require so much. Some of us are interested in God's overall plan beside just being an individual spiritual person doing miscellaneous "good" things. We are interested in the habitation of God in spirit - the church. " You shall see greater things than these. And He said, Truly, truly, I say to you, You shall see heaven opened and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man. " (John 1:50b,51) Jesus was refering to Bethel - the House of God. That is the vision that Jacob saw in Genesis 28. A house set up on the earth where God lives.Paul spoke of this as the habitation of God in spirit - " ... you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, Being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone.

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In whom all the building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord; In whom you also are being built together into a habitation of God in spirit." (Eph. 2:19b-22) The matter of Christ as the Head of a new humanity is for the building of God into man. That is for a living and holy temple in which God and man are united in an "organic" union of life. For this vision seeing Christ as the second Man, the real Head and the last Adam is important.

Quite the contrary. Believing into Christ makes at least one part of our being God, implanting the divine SEED of God's life into man's innermost spiritual being. It ADDS God into man's being as the "treasure in earthen vessels" . "But we have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellency of the power may be of God and not of us." (2 Cor. 4:7) "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9) This is a constitutional change within that the Christian must now learn to live by, live within, and live out. The implanting of the non-sinning divine seed of God's life is a constitutional change.Believing into Christ or receiving Christ does change a person. It adds God to that person.So to receive Him is to be given authority to become one of the children of God: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the authority to become children of God, to those who believe into His name." (John 1:12) This becoming one of the children of God is a matter of a spiritual birth and begetting: " ... to those who believe into His name, Who were begotten not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." ( vs.12b,13) To receive Him is to be a partaker in the divine nature: " ... He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature ..." (2 Peter. 1:4a) To receive Him is to be regenerated through and incorruptible seed of divine life. These are not just words for the humanist to insert his concept of self improvement: "Having been regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Peter 1:23)And this being regenerated through a incorruptible seed is to be regenerated unto a living hope. For it is to receive a LIVING Person within your innermost being: " ... according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope ..." ( 1 Peter 1:3) The power of this regeneration is through the resurrection of Christ from the dead: " ... has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead." (v.3c) The receive Christ then is to become a duplication of His life - ie. God living in man: "Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24) To believe into Him is to receive the Holy Spirit of God as a pledge stamped within: " ... in Him also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, Who is the pledge of our inheritance ..." (Eph. 1:14a) "He who has also sealed us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 1:22) "Now He who has wrought us for this very thing is God, who has given to us the Spirit as a pledge." ( 2 Cor. 5:5) And the constutional change is effected by Christ and His Father coming to dwell within the believers: " ... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him; and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23) All of this imparting of the Person of Christ and regeneration through the Triune God is according to the Old Testament prophecy of a new covenant effecting God writing His laws in man's heart and inscribing them in man's being: "For this is the covenant which I will covenant with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will impart My laws into their mind, and on their hearts I will inscribe them; and I will be God to them, and they will be a people to Me.

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And they shall by no means each teach his fellow citizen and each his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all will know Me from the little one to the great one among them." (See Hebrews 8:10,11 compare Jeremiah 31:31-34) This is barely scratching the surface of the constitutional change within the participants in the new covenant.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Since Adam was placed before the tree of life before sin was a issue. So it was part of God's eternal purpose for Him to impart this divine life into man.Man becomming a sinner did not change that. It made it even more vital. But even a good man, as Adam was, was not a man completely fulfilling the reason of his creation.In other words, even if we were not sinners we would still need to receive the life of God dispensed into our created life - to be joined to the Uncreated Person.In this aspect "salvation" means to come fully into the meaning of our human life. God created man to unite his created life with God's own uncreated divine life for a union - a mingling of God and man.He would have wanted this with or without the obstacle of SIN. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

This is a common mistake.What Adam and Eve knew about what was good to do and what was not good to do came directly from God. What they needed to know about good and evil was derived directly from His command.To eat of every tree of the garden was good.
To eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not good and not allowed. They got that directly from God's command.Adam named the animals. He had to have had wisdom to know what was a good name for each.When Adam's wife was brought before him he had to know that it was a good thing that he now had a helpmeet. And she was very good.So we cannot say Adam had no wisdom and discernment. Perhaps the free fellowship he had with God was his direct channel of discernment.Since Adam was born into a state which none of us can know, it is hard for us to imagine that state. But Adam was not a moral moron. He was a very good creation dependent upon God. His thrust towards independence from God brought in the tragedy of the fall of man.

What do you mean by this PD ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

But the story of God speaking with Abraham is about relationships ?What is the difference ? You said the OT and NT is about the God of Abraham. Well, the OT says that God appeared to Abraham and they spoke to one another. There was a relationship or else how could you consider God the God of Abraham ?If God spoke to Abraham and that was about a relationship between Abraham and the God of Abraham was is not God speaking with Adam about Adam and the God of Adam ?Why in Abraham's case you see a relationship but in Adam's case the story is not about relationship ? Are you saying the only important point is how easy is it to remember the story ?Why are not the accounts of God interacting with Abraham also not with point of relationship, but only ease of memorization ? You do not think that Paul, the author of about 13 of the 27 New Testament books, did not consider the account of God's involvement with Adam as history ?(How many books Paul authored is not my main point. But whether Romans and the Corinthians letters consider the Adam and Eve story as history or not) The book of Job is in the Hebrew canon.Nothing of the Abrahamic covenant is in the book of Job.
How then do you see this oldest of OT books in the Hebrew canon of Judaism ?The priest of Midian, Jethro, in Exodus was not Jew.
Where does he stand since he apparently knew of God ?Balaam was a Gentile prophet of God.
Where does he stand in relation to Judiasm ?Psalm 100 says that all the ends of the earth consist of the sheep of His pature. This seems to mean that all the nations constitute God's people in some sense - the sheep of His pasture.Ie "Make a joyful noise to Jehovah, all the earth. Serve Jehovah with rejoicing; Come before His presence with singing.

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Know that it is Jehovah who is God; It is He who has made us and not we ourselves.

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We are His people and the sheep of His pasture." (Psalm 100:1-3)Wouldn't that agree with God being a God of created mankind in general ? It is God who has made us all in "all the earth". All created men and women of the nations are "the sheep of His pasture" .Doesn't this establish God in the OT as everyone's God ?What about this utterance of God in Isaiah ? "Turn to Me and be saved, All the ends of the earth, For I am God and there is no one else.

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I have sworn by Myself; A word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness And will not return,

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That every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall swear.

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It shall be said of Me, Only in Jehovah is there righteousness and strength." (Isaiah 45:22-24a) Isn't this a call of God in the OT to all the world to look to Him for salvation ? Isn't this a declaration that all peoples universally are subject to His salvation and authority ?The covenant God makes with all man and living animals after the flood of Noah, isn't that before the calling out of Abraham and the "called race" ? Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.