Human Races

I realize that. To me it seems more like an issue of heredity and genetics, not an issue of race. Since race turns out not to be a very meaningful predictor of your heredity or genetics, how is race relevant? Why not just talk about the genetics?

Sure, but we don't call her - nor does she call herself - a white actress, do we? Nor do we call her black-white, or half-black-half-white - she's black.Why? Because our racial terms betray an inherent bias - you can't be white unless you're all white, but all it takes is a little black to be black. How could such a ridiculously inconsistent system have any scientifc validity? It's ridiculous to say that it reflects "ancestry", because every human being has two ancestries, from their two parents. Yet we only refer to one of them when we talk about race. Generally it's the ancestry often viewed as inferior, in times past- which is why Halle Berry is black and not white.

But what's to study?It's like saying "the tooth fairy may be insignificant, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't study it." Ok, the tooth fairy doesn't exist, so what's to study?Now, if you meant "cultural perceptions of race exist, so they should be studied," I agree. But race itself is a non-entity, so what's to study? Study the perceptions of race, yes. But you're wasting your time trying to study something that doesn't even exist.

Well, there's no difference between the melanin you get because you have a tan, and the melanin you have because you're of African descent. It's the samer chemical.I have a friend, if you looked at his skin, you'd swear he was black, Native American, or Arab at least. Really dark and dusky.Guess what? He's white. 100% Swedish.Skin color is just skin color. There's no need to associate it with race, because there's no predictive value. Culturally, race exists. We know it's a cultural thing because no two cultures - or even people - can even agree on how many races there are. You may break it up into Asian, White, and Black, for starters, but where does that leave Arabs? Or Jews? Ask a Nazi racist if he thinks he's of the same race as a Jew. To me they're both white. But there's a big difference to them.Physically, there's no race. Sure, there's physical differences between persons that people "hang" race on, but there's so many exceptions to any rule that you propose that the whole effort is flawed - there's just no way to reliably determine race from any physical characteristics, because the variations between races are less than the variations within races. You'll always have a bunch of "white" guys who look "asian", or "asians" who look like "black" people. And you'll always have people of mixed race - where do we put them?

The distinction is pointless, meaningless, and potentially a prelude to racism. There's not a single thing you you bring up that you can't explain with biogeography.Why did Europeans seem to hit that civilization before anybody else? Because they accidentally happened to live in a part of the world with fertile soil, a long growing season, and an astronomically large number of native species condusive to domestication.Of course, the number one problem your model has is that it relies on race, which doesn't exist.

No, they don't. For instance in Brazil they did a study that tried to make connections between genetic markers and people's race.What they found was that there was no genetic marker that could definitively determine what race you were. There's simply no biological basis to the concept of "race". I don't know what "rasism" is, no. I do know what racism is, however. Well, think for a minute. Prior to the introduction of other species by white settlers, what beasts of burden did the American Indians possess?Dogs, pretty much. A dog can't pull a plow. So, no organized agriculture. You have to duck to miss the point this badly. It's not the meat. It's the work. In your case, it's perverting science to come to exactly the conclusion you want - that you're part of a superior race. That is true, isn't it? You're not a black person, are you? Hardly a lie. You've pointed out no difference between regional groups that can't be handily explained by the culture's access to domesticatable species. There's no difference between the "races", because they don't exist. If you compare the groups you identify as "races" on any number of metrics, you find that the difference between groups is less than the difference within the group.If there's no predictable inheritable marker of race, and there's no predictable consequence of race, how does it make sense to conclude that race exists?

They're sure as hell going to get tans. If you wait long enough, and take away sunscreen and clothing, you're going to select for the dark-complexioned folks.Are they going to become "negroids"? Who knows? What the hell is a "negroid", and how would you recognize one? The genetic data that makes it very clear that all humanity is decended from a common ancestor. There's some statistical corellation between certain genetic factors and the reigon your ancestors are from. That's a long, long step from saying "all black people are going to have heart diease." So, yes. Science identifies that people use race as a shorthand. But they also realize that there's no biological basis for race. No. Because those terms are relative, not universal. Superior compared to what? Superior in what terms? By what metric?Folks with white skin have an advantage in northern climes. Folks with black skin have an advantage in sunny climes. Now, explain to me which of those traits is "superior."Kinda depends on where you're standing, doesn't it? There's nothing obvious except your own prejudice.

I think this statement says it all. Clearly education is the antidote to prejudice, then. Black skin color? It's melanin, the same compound that gives you a tan. Some people just have more of a tan. Melanin has a black color, I guess. Since all humans have melanin to some degree, are we all black?Some people have big lips, like Dolly Pardon. Is Dolly Pardon black? Some people who are considered "black", like Hally Berry, don't have big lips.So yes, those things are illusions. They're superfical traits possessed by some of the people considered to be of a certain race. But they're hardly a mechanism for race identification, because they're not shared by and unique to all members of that race. I'm trying to say he's a human being with a deep tan. For some reason, people find that noteworthy. I don't see any reason to. So where does that leave you? Why did you exchange thought for prejudice? Oh, you'll get it, I think.

But you discern differences where they don't exist. That's rather the problem, isn't it? Well, it's rather difficult to domesticate the horse when the only horses are an ocean away, wouldn't you say?Technology builds on itself. You can't invent the wheel before you have something to pull the cart. And domesticating species is the first technology. If your society can't pull that off because there's no species to domesticate, you're rather stuck, aren't you? What, exactly? That's sort of what I'm asking. What magic factors do you use to determine race? What the hell does that even mean? Blood isn't conscious.

Have you ever tried to grow wheat in Mongolia? Group identity is important. But why does that have to be based on race? I'm proud to be an American, among Americans of every kind. Maybe it's different in Greece. Civilization has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with technology. Well, you're sure not presenting a cogent argument.

I think you don't know what you're talking about. Siberia is too far north - the growing season is too short. They can barely feed themselves, much less import wheat to us. Horses eat grass. Humans cannot. Wrong again. What is civilization if not the advancement of technology? Nope. Maybe you've heard - we're the Great Melting Pot. What, you don't think Lenny Kravitz can rock?

I realize that you're from Greece, and therefore might not know anything about farming cereal grains. So believe me when I tell you that I'm from Minnesota, and that I can walk a mile from my front door and be standing in a wheat field.Wheat doesn't grow in Mongolia or Siberia, because the growing season is too short and it's too cold. Also Mongolia doesn't get enough rainfall for sustained agriculture.The easiest way for you to prove me wrong would be to show me the vast, verdant wheat fields of Mongolia, you know. Good luck. I'm supposed to take you seriously? You're talking to cats? What are you talking about? Who said anything about monkeys? Ah, true. That would be Little Richie, aka "The Father of Rock and Roll." Come to think of it, he's black, too. So much for your knowledge of music history. I'll not be insinuated that I'm ignorant from the likes of you. I'm sorry to see such filth from the cradle of Western Civilization.

I humbly ask you to look inside yourself and see if you're really so concerned about my spiritual well-being - me, a guy you've never met, who eats babies for all you know - or if what you're really after is the pride and acclaim that would come from bagging a hardened, arrogant, ex-believer atheist into the fold.I swear sometimes it's like folks are trying to count coup on me. Like I'm the big atheist white buffalo. If your God exists, he had his chance when I actually believed. None of what you describe as a loving, personal relationship occured from his end. Just from mine.

You'll pardon me if I don't seem to see the reason to avoid stepping on a few toes, if all that's going to happen is that somebody is going to lose faith in a lie. But I promise not to be the first one to bring up God, like always. But if somebody's going to inject God into the conversation, then an appropriate question at that point is whether or not he exists. We kind of have to cover that before we can know anything else about God, right? [This message has been edited by Phatboy, 02-17-2004]

None of your links mention wheat from Siberia.Oh, sure, we import wheat from the Ukraine. Everybody knows that. But the Ukraine isn't Siberia. We import their wheat not because we can't grow it ourselves but because it buoys the Ukrainian economy.Surely you know the difference between Siberia and the Ukraine?