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Author | Topic: Importance of Original Sin | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member
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ICANT writes: You never saw the show Francis the talking mule, or Mr Ed the talking horse. You have never seen a dummy sitting on a man's knee talking. Aren't all of the above examples of fakery? I'm not familiar with the talking mule, but I do know that no horse ever talked on the Mr. Ed show and that ventriloquist dummies don't really speak. On the other hand, the Bible describes the serpent as a clever talking animal. Genesis 3:1 (NIV)
quote: After his deception of Eve, God curses the serpent. I don't see any indication in Genesis that an evil being was using ventriloquism or fakery to make the serpent appear to talk.
quote: As far as the magic fruit there was no magic about it. It could have been any kind of fruit. It could have been, but eating the fruit appeared to have magical effects on Adam and Eve. Genesis 3:6
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
On what basis should he be expected to obey rather than disobey God?
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi CS,
Catholic Scientist writes: "So it was written" as opposed to "So it was" leaves open the possibility that he was talking about a story that wasn't necessarily factual events. Paul did not write "So it was written". Paul wrote:καί οϋτω(ς) γράφω The first word is kai a conjunction connecting this sentence to the previous sentence. The second word is hout(s) an adverb meaning in this manner. The third word is graph a verb which means to write or written. So Paul said, "And, in this manner written". "So" was a choice of the translators as was the insertion of "it is". God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi NoNukes,
NoNukes writes: After his deception of Eve, God curses the serpent. I don't see any indication in Genesis that an evil being was using ventriloquism or fakery to make the serpent appear to talk. Well if the serpent was not being spoken through by the devil who was he being controled by? Serpents can't talk can they? Yet this one did talk. But in this paradise perfect world all the animals might have been able to speak. Those of us who make it to the New Jerusalem John wrote about in Revelation will find out won't we. You do know the devil is refered to many times in the Bible as a serpent don't you?
NoNukes writes: It could have been, but eating the fruit appeared to have magical effects on Adam and Eve. What magical effects? The only thing that happened was when the man not the woman ate the fruit their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked. What was magical about them knowing they were naked? They did decide they needed clothes and covered themselves with fig leaves. Which is a lot more material than some try to cover their nakedness with today. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: On what basis should he be expected to obey rather than disobey God? If it is possible for you to put yourself in the first mans place please do so and lets look at what he observed. The man was formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7:
quote: This man was the first living life form on the face of the Earth.
quote: There was no plants of anykind alive so there was no animals of anykind alive. So the man of Genesis 2:7 was looking at a barren Earth. Now lets see what he observed, besides a barren Earth that had no water, no plants, and no animals.
quote: So this man observed plants that came into existence after he did.
quote: He then observed trees to grow out of the ground.
quote: He saw a river begin to exist.
quote: He saw animals, and fowls that began to exist.
quote: God brought a woman to him and he knew she was cloned from a bone from his body. Now if you saw all these things and the being that you saw do them told you not to eat the fruit of a specific tree, would you disobey that being? The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 had every right to believe that God could and would do exactly what He said He would do if he ate the fruit from the forbiden tree. Now if you want to mix this story up with the story in Genesis 1:2 throught Genesis 2:3 in which the man was created in the image/likeness of God on day six which was not told he could not eat of a specific tree, you could come to the conclusion why should I obey? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
jar writes: No, it is still only YOUR working definition, not Christianity. Sorry Charlie. And again, there is NOTHING in the story that shows they would necessarily fail. And the choice is simply whether or not to do right, something impossible until after they gained the great gift of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Nothing in the story about either salvation or damnation. Just not there Charlie. Original Sin is irrelevant to Christianity. Kicked to the touchline called 'gloopy disjointedness'. I get the hint..
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Straggler Member (Idle past 92 days) Posts: 10333 From: London England Joined: |
ICANT writes: Now if you saw all these things and the being that you saw do them told you not to eat the fruit of a specific tree, would you disobey that being? I might do. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't you?
ICANT writes: The man formed from the dust of the ground in Genesis 2:7 had every right to believe that God could and would do exactly what He said He would do if he ate the fruit from the forbiden tree. Pardon my biblical ignorance but what exactly did He say that he would do?
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
Straggler writes: I might do. Why wouldn't I? Why wouldn't you? I'm inclined to agree with you. In the measure that God does/provides something that makes Adam go "Wow" is Satan's temptation more enabled. Satan is offering Adam that he can be like God afterall. It seems to me that there is no particular reason why Adam should choose this way or that way - it's left to him to decide what he wants without his being swayed this way or that by what's on offer. There certainly is no sense that "this is what I ought do" applies (where 'ought' contains a moral dimension) We seem to be tied to the notion that sin necessarily involves choice with a moral element to it. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
ICANT writes: Now if you saw all these things and the being that you saw do them told you not to eat the fruit of a specific tree, would you disobey that being? Not unless I was given cause to be swayed in another direction. And if I wasn't given cause to be swayed in another direction (unto balance in the influence exerted by the competing options) then I can't see how the choice can be said to be a free-willed one. I mean, a set of choices in which one of the options is a no-brainer isn't exactly a choice that can be said to involve free-will. Such a situation would see the no-brainer option exert excessive influence. As stated to Straggler, the more God impresses Adam, the more the temptation to be like God is empowered.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3484 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:You're adding to the story. You're adding the back story that suits you. It's easier to do that with fiction than with fact. I have no problem with that in a teaching setting, but that's not what this is. We always wonder why the scared girl always runs away from the crowd and to the empty room or basement because we know she will get killed. The reason is because that is the way the story is written. The storyteller made Adam's choice, not Adam. The story can be altered to suit the needs of the storyteller or audience, just like you're doing. The Redactor put the two stories together to suit his purpose. People have written stories that integrate the two stories together to suit their purpose. Paul took what Adam represented for his purpose. It is a shame that Christianity took a nice cultural story and made it totally about sin. We don't really need those types of stories anymore. They are nice for the kids, but they will outgrow them at some point. From what I've seen so far, the Christians that feel they have no control over their behavior seem to cling to the Creation story. Like I said, losing the story doesn't take away from the teachings of Jesus or Paul. It probably doesn't help the later doctrine created through reinterpretation. Creative License.
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi iano,
iano writes: Not unless I was given cause to be swayed in another direction. What cause was given to the first man to disobey and eat the fruit? He knew the consequences was death. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi PD,
purpledawn writes: You're adding to the story. I am not adding to anything. I simply gave what was recorded in the verses I presented. Either it is true or it is false you have the choice of exercising your freewill and accept what is written or reject it. God Bless, "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi iano,
iano writes: Satan is offering Adam that he can be like God afterall. Where did Satan or the serpent make that offer to the man? God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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ICANT Member Posts: 6769 From: SSC Joined: Member Rating: 1.6 |
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes: Pardon my biblical ignorance but what exactly did He say that he would do? Cause the consequences of disobedience to occure. The consequences for disobedience was death. God Bless,"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."
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iano Member (Idle past 1967 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: |
iano writes: Satan is offering Adam that he can be like God afterall.
ICANT writes: Where did Satan or the serpent make that offer to the man? Here..
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