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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 121 of 1198 (634376)
09-21-2011 5:20 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by ICANT
09-20-2011 10:24 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
ICANT writes:
What cause was given to the first man to disobey and eat the fruit? He knew the consequences was death.
The fruit was desirable in it's being pleasing to the eye and being good for food. But since all the other fruit was like that there was no reason to dice with death in order to avail of this particular fruit.
However, the forbidden fruit was also desirable for gaining wisdom. Desire was awakened in Adam on seeing it (presumably God enabled this desire to be awakened in him as part of his design).
This desire fulfilled .. was the positive counter-offer to the negative offer of death.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by ICANT, posted 09-20-2011 10:24 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 09-21-2011 9:39 AM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 122 of 1198 (634381)
09-21-2011 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by ICANT
09-20-2011 10:38 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Straggler writes:
Pardon my biblical ignorance but what exactly did He say that he would do?
ICANT writes:
Cause the consequences of disobedience to occur. The consequences for disobedience was death.
Can you quote exactly where God said that? I want to know what the bible actually tells us he said. Then what did the serpent say?
Now - Bearing in mind that Adam and Eve are at this point unable to distinguish right from wrong - How are they supposed to decide what to do?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by ICANT, posted 09-20-2011 10:38 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by jaywill, posted 09-21-2011 8:10 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 128 by ICANT, posted 09-21-2011 9:54 AM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 123 of 1198 (634383)
09-21-2011 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
09-21-2011 5:14 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
iano writes:
Satan is offering Adam that he can be like God afterall.
ICANT writes:
Where did Satan or the serpent make that offer to the man?
Here..
quote:
4 You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
Which of course is exactly what happened.
Everything the serpent said was the truth and they did not die the very day they ate the fruit.
But again, Original Sin is simply not important for Christianity.
Edited by jar, : fix quote boxes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 5:14 AM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 1198 (634384)
09-21-2011 7:55 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
09-21-2011 5:14 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
iano writes:
iano writes:
Satan is offering Adam that he can be like God afterall.
ICANT writes:
Where did Satan or the serpent make that offer to the man?
Here..
quote:
4 You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
Which of course is exactly what happened.
Everything the serpent said was the truth and they did not die the very day they ate the fruit.
But again, Original Sin is simply not important for Christianity.
Edited by jar, : No reason given.
Edited by jar, : fix quote box
Edited by jar, : fix quote box

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 5:14 AM iano has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 125 of 1198 (634392)
09-21-2011 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Straggler
09-21-2011 7:45 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Now - Bearing in mind that Adam and Eve are at this point unable to distinguish right from wrong - How are they supposed to decide what to do?
This is a common mistake.
What Adam and Eve knew about what was good to do and what was not good to do came directly from God. What they needed to know about good and evil was derived directly from His command.
To eat of every tree of the garden was good.
To eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not good and not allowed. They got that directly from God's command.
Adam named the animals. He had to have had wisdom to know what was a good name for each.
When Adam's wife was brought before him he had to know that it was a good thing that he now had a helpmeet. And she was very good.
So we cannot say Adam had no wisdom and discernment. Perhaps the free fellowship he had with God was his direct channel of discernment.
Since Adam was born into a state which none of us can know, it is hard for us to imagine that state. But Adam was not a moral moron. He was a very good creation dependent upon God. His thrust towards independence from God brought in the tragedy of the fall of man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 09-21-2011 7:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 11:15 AM jaywill has not replied
 Message 140 by Straggler, posted 09-21-2011 3:09 PM jaywill has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 126 of 1198 (634397)
09-21-2011 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by iano
09-21-2011 5:14 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi iano,
iano writes:
Here..
quote:
4 You will not certainly die, the serpent said to the woman. 5 For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.
I don't see where that says the serpent said unto the man.
I can't find anywhere the serpent talked to the man.
I can find where the man blamed God and the woman for the problem as he said:
quote:
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
God said to the man:
quote:
Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
So the man listened to his wife not the serpent.
If you pay close attention to the text of 3:6,7 you will notice the womans eyes were not opened when she ate the fruit.
Their eyes was open after the man disobeyed God and ate the fruit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 5:14 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 10:42 AM ICANT has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 127 of 1198 (634401)
09-21-2011 9:39 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by iano
09-21-2011 5:20 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi iano,
iano writes:
The fruit was desirable in it's being pleasing to the eye and being good for food.
Where did the man say the fruit was pleasing to the eye or good for food?
iano writes:
However, the forbidden fruit was also desirable for gaining wisdom.
Who told the man the fruit was desirable for gaining wisdom?
The man had been told 1 thing about the fruit.
God did tell the man, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
So when the woman brought him the fruit and told him it was good he had a choice to make. He knew she was going to die because God had said so. He could chose not to eat the fruit and be alone or he could chose to eat the fruit and die with her.
Remember his words where he said:
quote:
2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.
2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.
He said in this statement a man would give up everything for his wife and in action he did exactly that. He chose to die with her.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 5:20 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 10:29 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 131 by hooah212002, posted 09-21-2011 10:42 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 128 of 1198 (634402)
09-21-2011 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by Straggler
09-21-2011 7:45 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Can you quote exactly where God said that? I want to know what the bible actually tells us he said.
God specifically told the man, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
Sentence was declared and would be carried out upon disobedience by eating the fruit.
Straggler writes:
Then what did the serpent say?
The serpent did not say anything to the man.
Straggler writes:
Now - Bearing in mind that Adam and Eve are at this point unable to distinguish right from wrong -
Why should I bear in mind that the man and woman were unable to distinguish right from wrong?
The text says nothing about them not knowing right from wrong.
Straggler writes:
How are they supposed to decide what to do?
Just like I should have known when my grandmother told me if I touched the red sides of the wood heater it would burn me.
Grandma told me if I touched it that it would burn me.
God told the man if he ate the fruit from the forbiden tree he would die.
I did not have to know right from wrong to know the heater would burn me and neither did the man have to know right from wrong to know he would die if he disobeyed.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by Straggler, posted 09-21-2011 7:45 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Straggler, posted 09-21-2011 3:20 PM ICANT has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 129 of 1198 (634403)
09-21-2011 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
09-20-2011 3:58 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Well if the serpent was not being spoken through by the devil who was he being controled by?
Maybe the serpent wasn't being controlled by anyone or anything. Who was Eve being controlled by when she talked with the serpent? Who was she being controlled by when she got Adam to eat the fruit.
Serpents can't talk can they? Yet this one did talk. But in this paradise perfect world all the animals might have been able to speak
Yes. You seem to be arguing my case for me.
The only thing that happened was when the man not the woman ate the fruit their eyes were opened and they saw they were naked.
Isn't that "only thing" something that never happened any other time Adam and Eve looked at themselves or each other? Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve never saw each other before Eve ate the fruit?
The gaining of the knowledge after eating the fruit was inexplicable, even if the knowledge itself seems mundane. What's magical about making a coin appear? Aren't coins ordinary, everyday objects? It is the sudden appearance that appears magical, and not the coin or knowledge itself.
ICANT writes:
You do know the devil is refered to many times in the Bible as a serpent don't you?
Aptly so given the serpent's actions in the Garden of Eden. Doesn't mean the devil is the serpent from the garden.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 09-20-2011 3:58 PM ICANT has not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 130 of 1198 (634406)
09-21-2011 10:29 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ICANT
09-21-2011 9:39 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
ICANT writes:
Where did the man say the fruit was pleasing to the eye or good for food?
He didn't say it nor did he need to in order for it to be so. It was said of the fruit of the trees planted in the garden generally. It's an objective fact that the fruit in the garden possessed these characteristics.
Given that fruit generally was pleasing to the eye/good for food - supported by the fact that a specific food had the same characteristic as fruit generally - leads me to assume he also saw what she saw.
In other words: the fruit generally, couldn't have been described as pleasing to the eye/good for food if it didn't strike Adam that way.
-
Who told the man the fruit was desirable for gaining wisdom? The man had been told 1 thing about the fruit.
God did tell the man, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die".
So when the woman brought him the fruit and told him it was good he had a choice to make. He knew she was going to die because God had said so. He could chose not to eat the fruit and be alone or he could chose to eat the fruit and die with her.
He said in this statement a man would give up everything for his wife and in action he did exactly that. He chose to die with her.
Making an assumption like the one up top (his seeing the food as pleasing/good for food) is a safe one to make in light of objective facts about the food.
What you've done above is made a complete leap to something unsupported in the text. A way to demonstrate this is to posit an alternative that makes use of facts.
He had told her what God had said about dying on eating. She also had the serpent telling her she wouldn't die on eating. And she choose - deciding to opt for the serpents version.
He had what God had told him and had, presumably what she told him - since he was there with her when she was seeing the fruit as desirable for gaining wisdom.
If she was able to decide between being told she would die/wouldn't die, why couldn't he?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 09-21-2011 9:39 AM ICANT has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 131 of 1198 (634407)
09-21-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by ICANT
09-21-2011 9:39 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
So when the woman brought him the fruit
Erm...wasn't Adam right there with her?
Gen 3-6 writes:
She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
So he was right there with her, but he didn't hear the snake?

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by ICANT, posted 09-21-2011 9:39 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 10:58 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 132 of 1198 (634408)
09-21-2011 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 126 by ICANT
09-21-2011 9:19 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
ICANT writes:
I don't see where that says the serpent said unto the man. I can't find anywhere the serpent talked to the man. I can find where the man blamed God and the woman for the problem as he said:
quote:Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
God said to the man:
quote:Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
So the man listened to his wife not the serpent.
If you pay close attention to the text of 3:6,7 you will notice the womans eyes were not opened when she ate the fruit.
Their eyes was open after the man disobeyed God and ate the fruit.
I'm not getting the significance of the woman/serpent being the purveyor of tidings unto him eating. He is given one story by God which contains a negative consequence. And one story by his wife that presumably* contains a positive consequence. And he chooses to eat.
* I say 'presume' because we are told he listened to her in his eating and she only had the serpents positive story to recount. Your 'he ate to join her in death' idea doesn't require him listening to her.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by ICANT, posted 09-21-2011 9:19 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 147 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 1:32 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 133 of 1198 (634410)
09-21-2011 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by hooah212002
09-21-2011 10:42 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
hooah writes:
So he was right there with her, but he didn't hear the snake
He was with her when she saw that the fruit was good and ate it. That could have been some time after the serpent made his suggestion.
quote:
?6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.
Killer stuff, this detailing.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by hooah212002, posted 09-21-2011 10:42 AM hooah212002 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by hooah212002, posted 09-21-2011 11:37 AM iano has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 134 of 1198 (634413)
09-21-2011 11:15 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by jaywill
09-21-2011 8:10 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
jaywill writes:
This is a common mistake.
Having watched you slice (usually unbelieving) opposition like the proverbial hot knife, it is with some trepidation that I query this claim.
What Adam and Eve knew about what was good to do and what was not good to do came directly from God. What they needed to know about good and evil was derived directly from His command.
To eat of every tree of the garden was good.
To eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not good and not allowed. They got that directly from God's command.
You are assuming that which is under discussion. All we can say for certain is that they knew what God commanded (because that is what he did). We cannot assume they have a sense that this was morally good (and it's opposite morally bad) - especially in light of them later coming into a knowledge of what was (clearly evidenced as such by their reaction) morally good and evil.
Even if God said, "don't do this, because it's bad" it would have no meaning unless they had some place to hang the concept 'bad'. Since that concept is only gained on eating they are left without mechanism beforehand.
-
Adam named the animals. He had to have had wisdom to know what was a good name for each.
When Adam's wife was brought before him he had to know that it was a good thing that he now had a helpmeet. And she was very good.
So we cannot say Adam had no wisdom and discernment. Perhaps the free fellowship he had with God was his direct channel of discernment.
Something tasting good requires an appreciation of goodness - but it's not a goodness that involves morality. Meeting a female whom you have been equipped to be attracted to is good and you must have an appreciation of what feels good in order to function in this regard - but again, that's not a moral kind of goodness
-
Since Adam was born into a state which none of us can know, it is hard for us to imagine that state. But Adam was not a moral moron. He was a very good creation dependent upon God. His thrust towards independence from God brought in the tragedy of the fall of man.
My own view is that Adam was a-moral and that his decision making was one based on what he saw as competing consequences - not moralities. This is based on:
a) the options given were couched in consequential terms: negative consequences and positive ones. Both God and the serpent talked in consequences.
b) there is nothing to fill the knowledge vacuum about their existance prior to their gaining a knowledge of good and evil. It's not good enough to say Adam was born in a state none of can know - a state which doesn't involve a knowledge of good and evil - and then assume he had some kind of knowledge of good an evil that wasn't the kind gained on eating.
His thrust towards independence was a possibility installed in him by his creator and so his choosing to go away from God must be seen by God as a good thing (where the goodness of his being able to choose supercedes (in his Enablers eye) the badness of the direction he chose to go in.
I see Adam as a pre-person and not at all an end product. He became someone who was placed in precisely the same situation as everyone ever born - fallen, but with the possibility of being redeemed. It is only after a pre-stage we call 'life on earth' that anybody - Adam included - can become as God ultimately intended them to be.
I'd see this latter notion supported by the fact that, search as one might, there isn't a clear hint of a loving father/son relationship existing between God and Adam. God as guardian, provider, enabler, educator - yes.
But God as loving, relational Father?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by jaywill, posted 09-21-2011 8:10 AM jaywill has not replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 135 of 1198 (634418)
09-21-2011 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 133 by iano
09-21-2011 10:58 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
That could have been some time after the serpent made his suggestion.
When was he with her? The text/context implies that he was with her when she initially ate it. But a literal reading doesn't say at what point he came to her side, now does it?

"Why don't you call upon your God to strike me? Oh, I forgot it's because he's fake like Thor, so bite me" -Greydon Square

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 10:58 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 11:44 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
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