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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 151 of 1198 (634520)
09-22-2011 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
09-22-2011 10:59 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
So humans have a nature to try things when they are told not to do them.
Where do you think that nature came from?
It came from experience and learning.
No god need apply.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 10:59 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 12:03 PM jar has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 1198 (634524)
09-22-2011 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 148 by purpledawn
09-22-2011 5:50 AM


Re: Paul and Legends
Some translations say when and some don't.
Yes, but of the translations in your link, none of them rules out a possible gap in time between Genesis 3:5, where the serpent does the talking, and Genesis 3:6, where Eve decides that the fruit is good to eat, and does so.
And at least a few translations do not say that Adam was with Eve during the deciding process.
My wife insists that Adam was there while the snake was talking. I think the strongest argument in favor of Adam being there is that Eve should reasonably have formed the conclusions about the value of the fruit described in Genesis 3:6 immediately after listening to the serpent.
After all, Eve already knew that the fruit was pleasing to the eye, and the suggestion that the fruit was good for obtaining wisdom came straight from the serpent's mouth.
Still could Eve have been more deliberate in her thought processes given that she understood that God had said not to eat the fruit. I'd be suspicious of any religious dogma about the details of when Eve did what.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 148 by purpledawn, posted 09-22-2011 5:50 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 153 of 1198 (634529)
09-22-2011 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Straggler
09-21-2011 3:45 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
According to ICANT there are literally two versions of Genesis and thus literally two versions of mankind, two Adams etc. etc. etc.
I am sorry you can not understand what I believe about Genesis, so let me state my position.
There is 1 book of Genesis.
There are two events recorded in the first 4 chapters of Genesis.
There is the original creation events that took place in Genesis 1:1 with the history of that day recorded in Genesis 2:4-4:25.
In this original creation of events the man was the first living life form. This man was formed from the dust of the ground. He was placed in a garden to keep it. There was no sea on this Earth, there was only a river that left the garden and then divided into 4 rivers to water the land. All animals and fowls was formed from the ground. Woman was cloned from a rib of the man. This man chose to disobey God's command not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For that he was cast out of the garden from the presence of God. He had sons and daughters who built cities. This world came to an end in the same light period when the evening of day one God declared in Genesis 1:5. Genesis 2:4-4:25
The condition of the Earth found in Genesis 1:2 is attested to by Peter in 2Peter 3:5 and Jeremiah 4:23-26.
Then we have the condition of the earth described by Jeremiah of the Earth being uninhabitable by man with no birds, man and the cities all destroyed.
Thus we find the condition of the Earth as described by Jeremiah and Moses in Genesis 1:2.
God then repaired the condition of the Earth and made it inhabitable by mankind.
The evening of the light period had come over the face of the Earth as it was covered in darkness.
God declared the darkenss of that first light period as evening which was the evening of day one and the light of the following morning which ended the first dark period as day one. That means there was no day before that day, there had only been existence.
We then have the second day, third day, fourth day, fifth day, sixth day, and the seventh day.
During these periods of 24 hour days God called forth all creatures after their kind from the waters and ground. He also created whales in Genesis 1:21 and mankind in Genesis 1:27. These were the only things created in Genesis 1:2-2:3. Everything else was called forth after their kind as well as the seed that was in the ground was commanded to produce vegetation. The sun, moon, and stars were made visible from Earth as in Genesis 1:2 they were not visible from but they did exist as they are apart of the Heavens.
Mankind which was created male and female (no specific number of males or females mentioned) on the sixth day were told to go forth and replenish the Earth. They were told they could eat the fruit from all trees and no tree was stated to be off limits. They were never placed in a garden and then kicked out of that garden.
The first series of events took place in the beginning. If you care to define the beginning please do, I can't.
The second series of events took place some 6,000 years ago.
So no there is only one Genesis which means beginning.
The second series of events was not a Genesis, it was a remodling job on a Earth that had undergone an extenction event.
There were were many extenction events in Earth's past, but only one that I can find was recorded in the Bible for our benefit.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Straggler, posted 09-21-2011 3:45 PM Straggler has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 154 of 1198 (634531)
09-22-2011 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by jar
09-22-2011 11:17 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi jar,
jar writes:
It came from experience and learning.
Why don't cats, or dogs put their paws in a fire to see if it is hot or will burn them?
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by jar, posted 09-22-2011 11:17 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by jar, posted 09-22-2011 12:08 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 155 of 1198 (634534)
09-22-2011 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ICANT
09-22-2011 12:03 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
They do, and they learn from it, and so do all of us great apes.
And it still has nothing to do with the silly Original Sin concept.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 12:03 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 156 of 1198 (634535)
09-22-2011 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by NoNukes
09-22-2011 11:31 AM


Re: Paul and Legends
quote:
Yes, but of the translations in your link, none of them rules out a possible gap in time between Genesis 3:5, where the serpent does the talking, and Genesis 3:6, where Eve decides that the fruit is good to eat, and does so.
We can speculate the whys and what for, but really this tells us that the issue was not important to the story that we have in the Bible. The person who put the creation stories together had a reason for doing that and included in the stories the information necessary for his purpose. The Jewish Legends I linked to had more details.
Storytellers adjust stories to fit what they need the audience to understand. In the parable of the Good Samaritan Jesus uses a priest, a Levite, and a Samaritan to make his point. Telling that parable to Native Americans wouldn't have had the same impact. They would have gotten the gist of the message, but the differences between the characters would have had no impact. A good storyteller would change the story and use characters that would make a similar impact on the Native American audience as it did the Jewish Audience.
Whether Adam was there or not isn't important to the story we have in the Bible. Basically the story tells us why we know the difference between good and bad, why snakes don't have legs, why man works the ground, why we have thistles, why we don't live forever, etc.
We can develop many lessons from the story just as we can any story. It doesn't have to be a religious writing. People over analyze a lot of literary works.
Eve did what the story needed Eve to do.
That's why I said, Paul's argument concerning sin doesn't need the creation story to be a factual event. Knowing that the story isn't a factual event doesn't undo Paul's argument concerning sin.
Paul's argument concerning sin wasn't even the original basis for the Doctrine of Original sin. The church fathers reinterpreted the story to fit their needs thousands of years later.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 09-22-2011 11:31 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 157 of 1198 (634536)
09-22-2011 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 149 by iano
09-22-2011 6:18 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi iano,
iano writes:
Indeed. But the question is whether he disobeyed in order obtain what were perceived by him to be positive consequences or whether he disobeyed in order to die with her.
No the question is did he obey God, or did he disobey God?
The reason he chose to disobey God is irrelavant, he disobeyed a direct command.
The same applies to all mankind today.
In John chapter 3 mankind is told "ye must be born again", "that which is born of the spirit is spirit".
Mankind is also told he is "condemned already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten son of God".
So if mankind is not "born again" by trusting in the only begotten Son of God he will remain "condemned".
The reason for choosing to remain "condemned" is irrelavant.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 149 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 6:18 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 160 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 1:07 PM ICANT has seen this message but not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 158 of 1198 (634537)
09-22-2011 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by iano
09-21-2011 6:01 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Straggler writes:
But why would Adam or Eve think that dying was a bad thing?
Iano writes:
Because he understood plain English (or whatever language was spoken then)?
Well that is an interesting question in itself. What language did Adam and Eve supposedly speak?
Iano writes:
I don't mean that he understood death in the detailed sense we're able to appreciate it by. Rather (we must assume) he understood dying as being something negative/unpleasant/to be avoided. It wouldn't have been hard for God to go about educating him in this.
But I thought the Chrsitian notion of an afterlife involved good and positive things? I am intrigued to know where it is that you think Adam is now that he is (presumably) dead? It is so terrible for him?
Iano writes:
If we don't assume he a working knowledge of this concept then we can't assume he had a working knowledge of any of the other concepts which are represented by words such as: On,this,day,you,will,surely, etc. - in which case debate is pretty much pointless.
Well we are assuming for the sake of argument people made from dirt, a talking snake, an apple that imparts knowledge and a whole host of other (frankly) outlandish things.
But I still don't see how God could make death sound like a bad thing for Adam without lying? Isn't Adam in paradise/heaven/whatever now?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by iano, posted 09-21-2011 6:01 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 1:19 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 159 of 1198 (634539)
09-22-2011 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by ICANT
09-22-2011 10:59 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
So God said don't eat the apple and the snake said do.
How on Earth were Adam or Eve supposed to know which one was right and which one wrong?
ICANT writes:
So humans have a nature to try things when they are told not to do them. Where do you think that nature came from?
I think that is an interesting question for evolutionary psychology.
Where do you think that nature came from?
ICANT writes:
Or would they be exercising their freewill by choosing to press that big red button?
Oooohh ICANT if you knew what the latest research told us about about our misconceptions of freewill I suspect you would have an apoplectic fit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 150 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 10:59 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 172 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 10:30 PM Straggler has replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 160 of 1198 (634542)
09-22-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 157 by ICANT
09-22-2011 12:20 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
ICANT writes:
No the question is did he obey God, or did he disobey God?
Then the question has changed.
I was dealing with an earlier suggestion by you that the REASON he ate was that he knew she would die because she had eaten and he was chosing to die with her. "Flesh of my flesh" was offered by you in evidence.
The reason he chose to disobey God is irrelavant, he disobeyed a direct command.
Now you say the reason isn't relevant. Somewhere along the line you've switched topic.
I've no problem agreeing that he disobeyed a command. It's rather obvious that he disobeyed. I mean, God said what to do + Adam didn't do what God aid = Adam disobeying God.

This message is a reply to:
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 161 of 1198 (634543)
09-22-2011 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Straggler
09-22-2011 12:25 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Straggles writes:
Well that is an interesting question in itself. What language did Adam and Eve supposedly speak?
It is an interesting question. Having a reasonable grip of Dutch as a foreign language I'd suspect all languages are like it: richer in some areas than one's own language.
So I imagine Adams, pre God-scattered language was pretty...expressive.
-
But I thought the Chrsitian notion of an afterlife involved good and positive things? I am intrigued to know where it is that you think Adam is now that he is (presumably) dead? It is so terrible for him?
"Death" in Christianity is a twofold thing - physical and spiritual. Everyone is born spiritually dead and dies physically at some point too. I'm sure you've heard this before.
Adam died spiritually that day (and would have, I'm sure, sufferedas a result as we all do - although he would have had something to compare the new situation to) and physically later on. In being dead spiritually/alive physically he would be in the same position as you or me. In need of God's salvation.
Whether he and Eve availed of that salvation I have no idea.
-
Well we are assuming for the sake of argument people made from dirt, a talking snake, an apple that imparts knowledge and a whole host of other (frankly) outlandish things.
I could say the same for the means whereby you suppose yourself to have come into existance. Molecular kettle calling the molecular pot frankly outlandish.
-
But I still don't see how God could make death sound like a bad thing for Adam without lying? Isn't Adam in paradise/heaven/whatever now?
Like I say, I've no idea.
If God dropped two big stones on Adams big toes such that it caused him to yell in pain (but not cause permanent damage) and then said that death was 10000 (or whatever) times more painful than that then Adam would have an idea of death as a negative thing without God lying to him.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Straggler, posted 09-22-2011 12:25 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 09-22-2011 4:22 PM iano has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 162 of 1198 (634557)
09-22-2011 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by iano
09-22-2011 1:19 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Iano writes:
If God dropped two big stones on Adams big toes such that it caused him to yell in pain (but not cause permanent damage) and then said that death was 10000 (or whatever) times more painful than that then Adam would have an idea of death as a negative thing without God lying to him.
But death doesn't have to be painful. Why would God make Adam's death painful in this way?
I am still perplexed as to why Adam (or Eve) would be averted from their actions by the "threat" of death. If death isn't such a bad state of being then it isn't a deterrent unless God is willing to lie about it. And if it is a terrible state of being then we can only conclude that Adam and Eve are suffering these perpetual torments even as we speak.
Either way - I don't see why they would have any basis for believing God over the snake with regard to the whole apple conundrum.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 1:19 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by purpledawn, posted 09-22-2011 4:55 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 164 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 7:11 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 175 by Chuck77, posted 09-23-2011 3:12 AM Straggler has replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3456 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 163 of 1198 (634558)
09-22-2011 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
09-22-2011 4:22 PM


Christianity Doesn't Need Original Sin
quote:
I am still perplexed as to why Adam (or Eve) would be averted from their actions by the "threat" of death. If death isn't such a bad state of being then it isn't a deterrent unless God is willing to lie about it. And if it is a terrible state of being then we can only conclude that Adam and Eve are suffering these perpetual torments even as we speak.
Ten posts and you haven't really established your position concerning the debate.
Do you consider the idea of original sin to be important to Christianity and why?
Do you consider the creation stories to be important to Christianity and why?
This thread isn't about analyzing the creation stories.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Straggler, posted 09-22-2011 4:22 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 7:25 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 189 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2011 10:39 AM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 164 of 1198 (634569)
09-22-2011 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Straggler
09-22-2011 4:22 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Straggler writes:
But death doesn't have to be painful. Why would God make Adam's death painful in this way?
Death (spiritual) is painful for all men. It has to be painful in the same way that a circle has to be round. To be dead spiritually is to be wrenched from proper connection with the divine life and health -giver > which leaves screaming, torn spiritual nerve endings
Post-fall Adam was a man like us. The pain of his spiritual death serves as a spur that might turn him back in the direction of his creator. It serves the same purpose in all born of him: you and me.
-
I am still perplexed as to why Adam (or Eve) would be averted from their actions by the "threat" of death. If death isn't such a bad state of being then it isn't a deterrent unless God is willing to lie about it. And if it is a terrible state of being then we can only conclude that Adam and Eve are suffering these perpetual torments even as we speak.
Are you clear that the Christian view is that the 'death' delivered at the point of their disobedience was immediate spiritual death followed by physical death at some point (we know they didn't die physically straight away and can assume they are not alive and well and strolling around Milton Keynes today)?
If you are clear, then it should be easy to see that post-Fall, they came to live just as you or I were born to live > as spiritually dead / physically alive beings with the potential to be saved.
In which case, the potential for salvation was as open to Adam and Eve as it is to you and me.
-
Either way - I don't see why they would have any basis for believing God over the snake with regard to the whole apple conundrum.
I don't see that they had any reason to believe one over the other either. For if they did then it would be God or the serpent who made their choice for them - by providing the most convincing story. Which would mean that God or the serpent would get the credit for them choosing - not them themselves.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by jar, posted 09-22-2011 7:24 PM iano has replied
 Message 179 by Dr Adequate, posted 09-23-2011 7:34 AM iano has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 165 of 1198 (634571)
09-22-2011 7:24 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by iano
09-22-2011 7:11 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Death (spiritual) is painful for all men. It has to be painful in the same way that a circle has to be round. To be dead spiritually is to be wrenched from proper connection with the divine life and health -giver > which leaves screaming, torn spiritual nerve endings
Post-fall Adam was a man like us. The pain of his spiritual death serves as a spur that might turn him back in the direction of his creator. It serves the same purpose in all born of him: you and me.
HUH?
There is no mention of "Spiritual Death" in the story or of some "pain of his spiritual death " in the story or of any wrenching from the proper connection with the divine life and health-giver in the story or "screaming, torn spiritual nerve endings" in the story.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 7:11 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 167 by iano, posted 09-22-2011 7:27 PM jar has replied

  
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