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Author Topic:   Importance of Original Sin
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 181 of 1198 (634653)
09-23-2011 9:30 AM
Reply to: Message 172 by ICANT
09-22-2011 10:30 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
You are one pedantic son of a.....
God said one thing. The serpent said the opposite.
Without the sort of knowledge that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" provides how are Adam or Eve going to know which one to listen to?
ICANT writes:
Whether it was right or wrong is irrelevant.
How can it be original "sin" without being wrong? Is it possible to sin in manner that is "right"....?
This would seem to be the crux of the whole issue and very far from irrelevant.
ICANT writes:
The information was included in the DNA.
If the psychological proclivity to press the Big Red Button marked "Do not press. Something terrible will happen" is innate in humans we didn't really have any meaningful choice at all did we?
It was inevitable.....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ICANT, posted 09-22-2011 10:30 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:22 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 182 of 1198 (634657)
09-23-2011 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 175 by Chuck77
09-23-2011 3:12 AM


Re: Simple command
If I sent my children (aged 5 and 1) out into the world where I know there to be devious entities (e.g. talking serpents) that are going to prey on their inevitable naivety I wouldn't just expect them to obey my instructions because of my manly commanding voice.
In fact until they are worldly wise enough I wouldn't (and don't) send them out anywhere unsupervised by an adult.
Your description of God qualifies him as a grossly negligent parent. Which when you consider what he did to his favourite son probably shouldn't come as much of a surprise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Chuck77, posted 09-23-2011 3:12 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 183 of 1198 (634658)
09-23-2011 9:46 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Nuggin
09-22-2011 11:20 PM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes:
How does man know not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil if man has no knowledge of good and evil?
Why does he need knowledge of good and evil?
God told the man not to eat from a specific tree.
quote:
Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
God simply told the man not to eat from a specific tree because if he did he would die. No need to know what is right or wrong was needed.
My first day at Ft Stewart my first sergent informed me there was three ways anything could be done.
The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.
He then said as long as you are in the army you will do things the army way.
The man in the garden had only two ways to choose from.
He could choose to do things his way.
OR
He could choose to do things God's way.
He chose to do things his way and because of that suffered the consequences.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Nuggin, posted 09-22-2011 11:20 PM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2011 9:54 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 186 by Nuggin, posted 09-23-2011 10:03 AM ICANT has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 184 of 1198 (634662)
09-23-2011 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Chuck77
09-23-2011 3:02 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Adam and Eve would have to be able to know that it would be right to obey God and wrong to obey the serpent.
Until after they ate gained the ability to tell right from wrong from eating the fruit, they did not have the capability to know they should obey.
Original sin is only important as a marketing tool and a total cop-out for some chapters of Club Christian and is not important to Christianity itself.
Edited by jar, : hit key too soon.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Chuck77, posted 09-23-2011 3:02 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 185 of 1198 (634663)
09-23-2011 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by ICANT
09-23-2011 9:46 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Was disobeying god a sin?
Is sin evil?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 9:46 AM ICANT has not replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 186 of 1198 (634664)
09-23-2011 10:03 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by ICANT
09-23-2011 9:46 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
My first day at Ft Stewart my first sergent informed me there was three ways anything could be done.
The right way, the wrong way, and the army way.
He then said as long as you are in the army you will do things the army way.
So on day two, your sergent says "No one is allowed in this building."
And on day three some other sergent says "Forget what he said, I'm in the army and I'm telling you to go in this building".
What's the Army way?
To address the Jesus question --
Jesus allegedly died on the cross to free mankind of original sin. The problem is, there was no sin. It's not a sin to be tricked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 9:46 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:53 AM Nuggin has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 187 of 1198 (634667)
09-23-2011 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Straggler
09-23-2011 9:30 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
How can it be original "sin" without being wrong? Is it possible to sin in manner that is "right"....?
There is no term "original sin" in the Bible.
If you want to define original as the first....
And sin as disobedience to God's command....
The "original disobedience" was when the man ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Straggler writes:
This would seem to be the crux of the whole issue and very far from irrelevant.
The crux of the whole issue is did man obey God or disobey God.
God commanded the man not to eat of a certain tree.
Up until the time man disobeyed and ate the fruit from the tree God commanded him not to eat man had a perfect relationship with God.
That relationship was severed when man disobeyed and ate from the forbidden tree.
For that relationship to be restored between God and mankind a sacrifice had to pay for that disobedience.
Since mankind could not pay the price for redemption as he had ceased to be perfect God provided the sacrifice to restore mankind to Himself.
That sacrifice was God in the form of a man we call Jesus.
Had that man not disobeyed God he would still be perfect and in the garden walking and talking with God and you and I would never have existed.
Because of the sacrifice that was paid to redeem you and place you in a position the same as that first man had with God you don't have to know what is good and what is evil.
All you have to do is believe God to be restored to the condition that first man was before he disobeyed God.
But then you can choose to do things your way and not be restored to a perfect relationship with God.
So don't blame God for your choices as you blame God for the first man's choices.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2011 9:30 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2011 10:33 AM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 188 of 1198 (634668)
09-23-2011 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 187 by ICANT
09-23-2011 10:22 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Is it a sin to disobey God?
Is sin evil?
God said one thing. The serpent said the opposite.
Without the sort of knowledge that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" provides how are Adam or Eve going to know which one to listen to?
ICANT writes:
The crux of the whole issue is did man obey God or disobey God.
Well either God or the serpent were going to be upset by mans action.
So - How was man to decide which way to go on this issue?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 187 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:22 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 192 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 11:49 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 189 of 1198 (634669)
09-23-2011 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by purpledawn
09-22-2011 4:55 PM


Re: Christianity Doesn't Need Original Sin
PD writes:
This thread isn't about analyzing the creation stories.
Just seen this. Fair enough.
PD writes:
Do you consider the idea of original sin to be important to Christianity and why?
Well it depends which flavour of Christianity one is considering. It seems pretty fundamental to Catholicism for example.
PD writes:
Do you consider the creation stories to be important to Christianity and why?
Again it depends which particular Christian version of God one is considering. To evangelical creationists/literalists - Yes. Obviously. To a certain breed of wishy-washy-verging-on-deistic Anglicans - Barely at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by purpledawn, posted 09-22-2011 4:55 PM purpledawn has seen this message but not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 190 of 1198 (634675)
09-23-2011 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by Nuggin
09-23-2011 10:03 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes:
Jesus allegedly died on the cross to free mankind of original sin. The problem is, there was no sin. It's not a sin to be tricked.
Jesus gave the physical life of His earthly perfect body on the cross to restore mankind to the right relationship the first man formed from the dust of the ground had with God in the garden before he disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the forbidden tree.
Where does the text say the man was tricked into disobeying God?
He did blame God for his disobedience.
quote:
Genesis 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
The man did not blame the serpent, and he did not blame the woman.
He blamed God by insinuating that if God had not given him the woman he would not have eaten the fruit from the forbidden tree.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Nuggin, posted 09-23-2011 10:03 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by Nuggin, posted 09-23-2011 11:11 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 194 by purpledawn, posted 09-23-2011 12:43 PM ICANT has replied

  
Nuggin
Member (Idle past 2492 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


(1)
Message 191 of 1198 (634676)
09-23-2011 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
09-23-2011 10:53 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Where does the text say the man was tricked into disobeying God?
A _talking snake_ told Eve to eat the fruit.
Normal snakes do not talk. Therefore, a talking snake must have been created magically.
Man has no knowledge of evil, therefore the only force in the Universe capable of creating a magic talking snake is God.
If a messenger of God comes and tells you something - you believe it.
Sin is willfully breaking a rule with foreknowledge that it is wrong to do so.
It is not sinful to steal someone's food if you don't know that anyone else exists. You have no concept of "other people" and therefore no concept of "other people's property". You can not "steal" if you don't have a concept of property.
It is not sinful to eat a clam if you've never been told that clams are forbidden.
It is not sinful to obey God when he says "don't eat". It is not sinful to obey God's messenger when the messenger says "Okay, now you can eat".
So, there's no "original sin" for Jesus to restore.
Further, there has been no restoration.
If the whole claim is that Jesus died on the cross to restore man to his original state, then humanity should have no knowledge of good and evil. Yet, we do.
Alternately, the fruit causes mortality. If you eat it you will surely die.
Are people immortal? No.
You can make all sorts of claims about eternal life AFTER DEATH, however the key thing there is _AFTER_ _DEATH_.
Face it, it's all a bunch of bull. The narrative makes no sense.
That's what happens when you bring in lots of spare writers to "touch up" a plot.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 195 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 1:21 PM Nuggin has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 192 of 1198 (634685)
09-23-2011 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by Straggler
09-23-2011 10:33 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Straggler,
Straggler writes:
Is it a sin to disobey God?
Depending on what definition you want to use for sin.
If we use the definition of the root word that sin comes from I would say yes. The original Hebrew word תטאת a feminine noun means 1) sin, sinful. This word is from the root word תטא which means 1) to sin, miss, miss the way, go wrong, incur guilt, forfeit.
The problem is that תטאת is not used concerning the disobedience of the man in the garden. The first time usage is in Genesis 4:7.
Straggler writes:
Is sin evil?
Please give your definition of sin and evil.
Straggler writes:
Without the sort of knowledge that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" provides how are Adam or Eve going to know which one to listen to?
You have not shown yet where the man had that choice.
According to the man the woman gave him the fruit and he ate it.
In no text does the serpent trick him or even try to convince him to eat the fruit.
So his only choice was to obey God and not die or listen to his wife and eat the fruit and die.
Straggler writes:
Without the sort of knowledge that "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" provides how are Adam or Eve going to know which one to listen to?
Well the man knew that God had formed the serpent from the ground and given him life and brought him to the man to name.
So if the serpent had tried to trick the man he would have laughed at him and obeyed God who formed the serpent.
So the man's choice was to either obey God and live or to listen to his wife and eat the fruit and die with her.
Straggler writes:
So - How was man to decide which way to go on this issue?
Simple. He could obey God and live by himself because he believed God.
OR
He could eat the fruit and die with his wife, as he knew she had eaten the fruit and would die.
But this disobeying of God's command changed the relationship of mankind with God.
The first man sold all mankind into slavery to the god of this world which is the devil.
Paul's statement:
quote:
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
So that man forfeited a perfect relationship with God for all mankind.
The solution to the problem.
quote:
Romans 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Everyone can have a free gift to remove that condemnation through the sacrifice God gave upon Calvary's tree.
All mankind can believe God and obey Him and be born again, and receive a free full pardon.
OR
Mankind can reject the offer of God and do things his way and stay condemned.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2011 10:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Straggler, posted 09-23-2011 12:03 PM ICANT has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 193 of 1198 (634688)
09-23-2011 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by ICANT
09-23-2011 11:49 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Well I think we have pretty much established the semantic games and equivocation that your position demands.
Disobeying God is a sin. It is for this that mankind is punished. But there is no basis upon which the sinner can know that they are sinning without the knowledge that can only be gained by committing the sin.
You might as well torture babies for selecting the "wrong" rattle.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 11:49 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 2:01 PM Straggler has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 194 of 1198 (634701)
09-23-2011 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by ICANT
09-23-2011 10:53 AM


Right Relationship
quote:
Jesus gave the physical life of His earthly perfect body on the cross to restore mankind to the right relationship the first man formed from the dust of the ground had with God in the garden before he disobeyed God and ate the fruit from the forbidden tree.
The Jewish religion began with Abraham. The Jewish relationship with God began with Abraham, not Adam, because Abraham (according to legend) reasoned that there was only one God.
One's relationship with God is right when one is behaving appropriately. If you really have to look at Adam and Eve as real people, their relationship with God wasn't due to having no sin nature. They already had the sin nature. The whole point of the OT is that when his people misbehave, God hides his face and they suffer; and when his people behave, he blesses them. The same thing happened to Adam and Eve.
The sacrifices in the OT didn't make people right with God, repentance did. Continued right behavior. That's what Jesus and Paul taught. No one else can restore our "right relationship" with God except us through repentance and continued right behavior.
Since Jesus didn't present himself as a sacrifice to patch mankind's relationship with God, the creation story only impacts those who feel the story is real or have learned that our operating system was different than they are now.
It is clear that the importance of the creation story to some Christians is a later development, not something that Jesus or Paul presented.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 10:53 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 198 by ICANT, posted 09-23-2011 2:53 PM purpledawn has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 195 of 1198 (634708)
09-23-2011 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by Nuggin
09-23-2011 11:11 AM


Re: Creation Story and Original Sin
Hi Nuggin,
Nuggin writes:
A _talking snake_ told Eve to eat the fruit.
I did not ask anything about the serpent talking to the woman.
Where does the text say the man was tricked into disobeying God?
It does not nor does the man claim he was deceived or tricked by the serpent.
He blamed God for his disobedience.
Nuggin writes:
Normal snakes do not talk.
Where do you find that this serpent did not have the ability to talk?
As far as that goes how do you know that all animals at that time did not talk?
quote:
Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Can you tell me when the beginning was?
The serpent under discussion was formed from the ground in the same light period that the Heavens and the Earth was created. He had legs and could walk until God cursed him and told him he would crawl on his belly the rest of his life.
BTW Science says snakes used to have legs.
If the serpent could walk why couldn't he talk? No magic involved.
Nuggin writes:
If a messenger of God comes and tells you something - you believe it.
You don't know anything about me then.
I don't believe anything I am told, and very little of what I see.
I am told to question everybody.
quote:
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
Nuggin writes:
Sin is willfully breaking a rule with foreknowledge that it is wrong to do so.
The man was commanded not to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He was told if he did he would die.
The man chose to eat the fruit and suffer the consequences.
The only thing involved was his disobeying a direct command.
You will not find that God or Moses says that disobedience was a sin. You do not find that statement until Paul makes it in Romans.
Nuggins writes:
It is not sinful to obey God when he says "don't eat". It is not sinful to obey God's messenger when the messenger says "Okay, now you can eat".
Where does the text say God sent a messenger that said "Okay, now you can eat"?
Nuggin writes:
So, there's no "original sin" for Jesus to restore.
As I have said several times the term "original sin" does not appear in the Bible.
The relationship that was broken, (when the man disobeyed God), between mankind and God is what had to be restored.
That broken relationship brought about the necesity of the sacrifice at Calvary to restore mankind to the same relationship the man in the garden enjoyed prior to his disobedience.
Nuggin writes:
Further, there has been no restoration.
Everyone who has been born again has been restored to a right relationship with God.
Nuggin writes:
If the whole claim is that Jesus died on the cross to restore man to his original state, then humanity should have no knowledge of good and evil. Yet, we do.
When I was born again my spirit was made perfect and in a right relationship with God.
My mind is being restored on a daily basis as I study the Word of God and correct things that I do that are wrong.
My body will be restored at the resurrection when I receive a new body that will be in the same relationship to God that the man in the garden was. It will be perfect.
Nuggin writes:
Alternately, the fruit causes mortality. If you eat it you will surely die.
The first man was formed from the dust of the ground.
The dust of the ground was already an eternal existing substance so from the beginning of mankind he was an eternal being.
I read somewhere you can not create or destroy energy or matter but they are interchangable. So everything has always existed in some form just not nesecerally in the form we observe it today.
Nuggin writes:
You can make all sorts of claims about eternal life AFTER DEATH, however the key thing there is _AFTER_ _DEATH_.
And that after death is JUDGMENT.
quote:
9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Nuggin writes:
Face it, it's all a bunch of bull. The narrative makes no sense.
Paul gives the reason for your view.
quote:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You can believe it is a bunch of bull if you want to, that is your choice to make.
But be warned what you believe has no bearing on what God says.
God told the man not to eat of a specific tree, and if he did he would die.
Man disobeyed God and was separated from God by being kicked out of God's garden, and he did die as I can't find an address for him.
Because that man disobeyed God all mankind are separated from God and required a sacrifice to restore that relationship man had before he disobeyed God.
That sacrifice was providen in the form of a man we call Jesus which was God with us.
Mankind today has one choice as did the man in the garden.
Mankind can choose to accept the free gift from God or reject it.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by Nuggin, posted 09-23-2011 11:11 AM Nuggin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 200 by Nuggin, posted 09-23-2011 3:37 PM ICANT has replied

  
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