Hello again Iano,
Even if God were proven to exist. I am not sure I would want to worship him anyway. If he were proven to exist, there would still be just as many interpretations as to which way he is to be worshipped and what exactly consitutes sin.
my comment - Personally, I would give myself a stout 7.
your reply - Like I say, it's a pretty typical self-assessment that folk arrive at (even amongst serious criminals like rapists and murderers). Those that come to belief in the Christian God will in so coming (the Christian God indicates) have a somewhat dimmer view of themselves. The question is, whose self-assessment is objectively the correct one.
"Blessed are the poor in spirit (or 'have a very dim view of their moral worth') for theirs is the kingdom of God"
I would agree with this. I know a murderer and he still believes he is a good person. I happen to agree with him. He is a good person. He did one terrible thing. But he is still a good person. He will be in jail for the next 10 or so years before he even gets a chance to get out. He is a good person. I wont go into the detail but if I was in his particular situation, I would probably have commited murder as well. Does it make me a bad person knowing this? Am I a bad person because I would do the same thing or do I only become a bad person if I actually do it?
If Gods motivation was to put us to some sort of a test, then I have not passed this test. If, in this specific instance, I was to be tested, I am pretty sure I would fail. So is God purposfully allowing me to avoid this test in order to pass? Is God giving me a get out of hell free card?
I think it is pretty rough that in order to be blessed you have to have a dim view of your own moral worth. That seems a little masochistic to me.
You are comfortable with your sin and selfishness and the burden of your sin appears to weigh lightly on your shoulders. As mentioned, the technical term for the means whereby you maintain this position is called "suppression of truth".
This is not true. I am not comfortable with my sins. Also, the burden of my sins does not weigh lightly on my shoulders. It is important to note that they are squarely on my shoulders. I will not and would not want to have someone else carry my sins. I am not suppressing anything. I carry my sins because they are mine to carry. They are neither light nor comfortable. But bear them I must.
The word 'suppression' and 'truth' are not accidental words. If sin truly is an ugly, stinking thing and you suppress it out of view then of course you won't recoil from it. Of course you'll live in harmony with it. Of course you won't see any problem with it.
Wouldnt handing your sins over to someone else and carrying on guilt free be considered to be suppressing them out of view? I do not live in harmony with my sins. I attempt to atone for them. I will not pass my sins onto another to deal with them for me. That is suppression. That is passing the buck.
The outcome of the truth about your sin rising to the surface and into (your) full view isn't that you'll deign to accept Jesus' offer. Instead, the horror of it will have you run headlong and in desparation into his arms. All that has to happen is that
a) your sin be tremendously ugly and smelly
b) your sin become completely visible to you.
Both of the above are eminently possible so I wouldn't be too dogmatic on what can or cannot occur.
If the Earth was created in order for us all to go through this big trail then it would be a pretty cruel deal. A region is created, where individuals who are predisposed to sin are placed. Then commanded not to follow their own desires. Desires that were part of our design. When we do sin, we get to happily pass these sins of onto another. Never having to actually pay for them ourselves. Only if we do these things do we get rewarded. Thats a pretty terrible game.
If you don't feel you can do enough to fill yourself to satisfaction then you're agreeing exactly with what I'm saying. If there always is a hunger that can't quite be filled then you are singing from the same hymnsheet as me.
Now I'll grant that this hunger isn't necessarily one that drives you to the distraction that has you kneel at the Lords feet. Not all will be saved and not all will be saved this minute. But you are testifying to the presence of the basic elements involved in salvation:
Why would god fill me with an inate sense of curiosity and an above average brain, then tell me that that exact curiosity is a sign that I need god? Why make me a certain way if that is not going to be acceptable? I would never approach God if I new that I would never feel the desire to expore and know more. It is one of the greatest parts of my life.
With God there is plenty more to find out, plenty more to hunger for. But it's a different kind of appetite and a different kind of filling. The things of the world aren't designed to fill in the way the Lord does.
What if I have no interest in what he is selling? I currently have no desire to explore the Christian religion. What if the desire never comes?
Your responses are those of a lost person - there's nothing particularly unusual in their general thrust. All lost people get a chance of salvation.
I dont feel lost. If I dont feel lost, why would I look to be found? If part of Gods motivation for creation was to put us in situations that we would like to be found, then this is also unnappealing. This would mean that God has created an environment that is so shit that we run to him for help. Would it not be better to create a good environment and put the offer on the table. It seems like Gods motivation is to sell us a dubious product at gunpoint.
Although I wouldn't have the temerity to suggest where you might be along the path, I'd wager that someone who scored themselves a good degree less that you do and who found the worlds treasures didn't fill an ache inside ... was further down it than you yourself. That's the territory I occupied shortly before I fell to my knees and my story would sound a common resonance with those who are found.
I may well be on the path. Who knows. I doubt it personally but from what I have read of God, he is a complicated chap. If I had been around for all eternity, I would probably want to liven things up a bit as well. It seems a pity that my own labours to atone for my sins, labours that have improved my sense of self worth, would actually lead me away from God. My attempts to deal with my sins, rather than hoist them unceremoniously onto a 200 years dead prophet, have improved my sense of pesonal worth and dignity. Because I feel better about myself for trying to right my own wrongs, I am actually distancing myself from God. This seems a bit wrong.
I also dont think I will live long enough to see all of the things I want to see in this world. I have a list and I will be very lucky to see it all done before the reaper taps me on the shoulder.
So it appears that because I have big dreams and that I have taken personal responsibility for my sins and actively work to atone for them, I will never get a chance at heaven.
If the opportunity to get into heaven was Gods motivation for making the world, it looks like the deck was stacked against people like me. When he made me, he would have been aware that I was detined to fail. Thats a bit rough wouldnt you say?
Edited by AdminPD, : Warning
Edited by AdminPD, : Removed warning
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong
Butterfly, AKA, mallethead - Dawn Bertot
"Superstitions and nonsense from the past should not prevent us from making progress. If we hold ourselves back, we admit that our fears are more powerful than our abilities." Hunters of Dune Herbert & Anderson
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