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Author Topic:   The Hebrew Bible (Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only)
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 4 of 43 (635217)
09-28-2011 12:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
09-26-2011 2:59 PM


You have initiated this thread, in response to my understanding of the Hebrew bible, but not because I argue against any other religious writings. One can respect all religions while also defending against unfound and eronous interpretations or attacks on other belief systems.

quote:
You mentioned that you are accepting the dead sea scrolls. In some discussions regarding this matter you have been very specific about accepting BOOKS only. These are scrolls. The hint is in the title. This is fine though. The Dead sea scrolls are the first I am aware of also. You have given a number of different dates. The earliest date I have found for the Dead Sea Scrolls is an approximate 250BCE (source : http://www.deadseascrollsfoundation.com/) This is the earliest (partial) copy of this text ever found. You mention a date of 3500 ago according to Moses. If you can provide the document with a link so I can have a look, I will be happy to concede this. However, from the way you phrased it, you wont be able to do this. You have to provide the document. You have said the first recording. So you will have to actually provide the first recording. 250BCE to 65 AD is the age from my source. And it is not all of the Old Testement. The next oldest is fragments, 800-1000 ACE, the oldest complete copy is the Leningrad Codex from 1008AD (same source). Will you accept 250BCE as the oldest known copy of the Old Testement in existence? That will give me a confirmed date to work from.

Books can be in scroll or parchment form, but it must show a multi-page continueing narrative. Yes I accept the scrolls' 250 BCE dates. This does not mean the writings were composed on that date, obviously it is much older, with 100's of copies found in the parcel, and 1000's of bits of writings, obviously destroyed in the fires of Rome which burned down all of Jerusalem city cubit by cubit. It is amazing that anything of the scrolls survived. While we do not have a 3,500 original scroll, which is believed to be contained in an arc hidden away or destroyed, we have loads of evidence [as opposed hard proof] of these writings being much earlier.

We have evidence the Greeks first translated this document in 300 BCE [The Septuagint], but more impacting are the dates, places, events and cross nation interactions mentioned in the Hebrew bible - almost all of these descriptions have been vindicated. The writings have also been evidenced by relics of the Temple, coins and post writings from the book of kings [evidenced in the Tel Dal find which confirmed King David], and numerous wars listed in the books between 1000 BCE to the scrolls datings. Conclusion: all things being relative, there is no writings anywhere more historically and factually evidenced than the Hebrew. In fact, I know of no earlier alphabetical books predating the Hebrew bible or any other alphabetical work for centuries after that. This may also be the reason why we do not have earlier writings - this was a long term, expensive project akin to building a great monolith - many people never knew how to write 3,500 years ago, while we find advanced alphabetical works dated 3000 years ago [Book of Joshua, the Psalms, etc].

What is your point in questioning such formidable evidence?

quote:

2. The Hebrew Bible is Unique in its claims. I am not sure what IamJoseph means by this. It could be that the Hebrew Bible is unique in making these claims. If the Hebrew Bible was first at something, then it would be unique at that time. It will stop being unique until someone else makes the same statements. I will need IamJoseph to clarify this statement.


Yes, of course it is unique. It introduced many things, including creationism, monotheism, science, medicine, democrasy, what became known as evolution, judiciary laws, the first cencus in the millions, the first mention of the philistines, mount ararat, mount nebo, the first king, the first human name, the oldest active calendar. One can go on and on. That is unique.

quote:

3. The Hebrew Bible is the first recording of the claim that the universe being finite.

IamJoseph additional information - Genesis opening verse; first 3 words: IN THE BEGINNING. The entire verse is open to no other reading than the heavens and the earth [universe] had a beginning. This is my reference.

from Message 212

Ok, Good reference, I can find the chapter and verse too. The key phrase is 'In the beginning'. So any religious document I can find that discusses a beginning is acceptable. There is the issue that we dont currently know that the universe is actually finite. The only way we could scientifically prove this, is to find its edge. Your interpretation that 'In the Beginning' means the universe is finite can also be challenged. It only means that it began. God, being all powerful and capable of anything is certainly capable of creating an infinite universe. But that does not matter. It is not the interpretation I am trying to argue. But you could think on these things to strengthen your arguement for future debates. To refute the claim, I need to find a text dated prior to 250BCE that mentions a beginning in its creation narrative.


The point is you cannot show another earlier recording of the universe being finite. You don't need a text, but you do need evidence. I gave you that above and you cannot show such equivalence elsewhere. Nor does it matter if you use the 250 BCE date - it is still the oldest record of a finite universe.

quote:

4. The Hebrew Bible is the first listing of life form groups [species]IamJoseph additional info - Its only the most known writings on earth: Ch1/V9-31. The seperation is by terrain and habitat - the most fundamental ones.

from Message 212
Ok, so it does not actually mention species. And it does not match the definition of species. It is a grouping into kinds. This is fair enough. So, to refute this, I need to find a recording, prior to 250BCE, of animals being grouped in some manner. Any manner. The 'kinds' grouping system (airborne, waterborne etc) do not match current scientific groupings of animals so I need not provide an accurate grouping method.


If it mentioned species we can be sure it is a fake - the term was invented recently. Of curse, 'KINDS' is more authentic of its period, yet applicable today. Of course, seperation by terrain and habitat is more fundamental than skeletal and hidden genes. The first thing one sees of a zebra and a fish is terrain not their hidden organs. Does OK mean you agree Genesis first recorded life form groupings - you are not forthcoming here, which leads only to a circular arguement?

quote:
5. The Hebrew Bible was the first recording of the separation of time into days and weeks.

IamJoseph additional info - These are the first recording of day and week: And there was evening and there was morning, one day.
Duet 16/9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing corn shalt thou begin to number seven weeks.

from Message 212
Ok, so to refute this claim, I need to provide any reference, dated prior to 250BCE, to evenings, mornings or single days (breaks in time), weeks of days.


You need to show DAY and WEEK. The seven week cycle was required to be stated before accounting harvest periods and rremembering anniversary laws which followed. This says Genesis is intelligent and it's writings are in the correct protocol.

quote:
6. The Hebrew calendar is the oldest active calendar [5770]

IamJoseph additional info - It begins after the 6 creation days. The first Saturday occured 5750 years ago, and all events since then are diarised, as seen in any Hebrew newspaper. This is the oldest active calendar and the most accurate one

from Message 212
I will need you to produce evidence of the calendar that began in 3759BCE. From what you have written, you are using the Bible as a source to prove itself. This is not good enough unfortunately. Any writer can write something and backdate it 2000 years. I could write a calendar right now and backdate it 250 000 years. This does not mean that my calendar is the first calendar in existence. You will need to actually provide non biblical evidence of your claim. This statement comes in two parts, the oldest active calendar and the most accurate calendar.

In order to refute this claim, I need to find a calendar that is confirmed to date prior to 250BCE. I will see if I can find one that is also still in use somewhere and is as accurate. I will check the accuracy of the Jewish calendar also.

We had a bit of a chat about the mentioning of the geological formations. It will probably be too difficult or irrelevant to discuss them further. I will move on to the next claim.


There is no history pre-Hebrew calendar: no names, nations, wars, kings, etc. In contrast, we have a calendar listing events of 5772 years, and substanially evidenced, to the extent of anything which can be evidenced. Show us an earlier reference of Mount Ararat - or a name older than Adam? So I am not using the Hebrew writings as its own self evidence; we have no alternate factors which can serve as a counter.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-26-2011 2:59 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 5 of 43 (635218)
09-28-2011 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
09-26-2011 2:59 PM


quote:
7. The Hebrew Bible contains the first recorded census.

I have asked for clarification of what you mean and received this reply.

Look for it!


Because you are expected to know what you are arguing against. The Hebrew bible contains the first scientific cencus, as well as the first graduation of a tribal group to a nation - the word NATION OF ISRAEL is used after the cencus following the Egyptian exodus, retained thereafter thoughout the remaining five books, with sub-totals of age and gender, accounting to 3 million Israelites and also a mixed multitide of other people. How can you not know this and argue the point? This passage also shows that math was concurrent with the Hebrew writings at that time, to the extent there is no errors when the sub-totals and grand total are tallied, with names of tribal leaders and in fractions of counts. If you know of an earlier cencus than please enlighten us?

quote:

from Message 212

Hmmmm. Thats not really how it works. If I dont know exactly what you are talking about, it is difficult for me to research your claim for you to verify or refute it dont you think?

How about I try it this way -

The definition of census - An official count or survey of a population, typically recording various details of individuals.

So, to refute you claim, I need to find an official count or survey of people confirmed dated prior to 250BCE. Hows that?


Refute it? There is a list of many pages from Ch 1 to Ch 2 which records a cencus:

quote:

Numbers Chapter 1
1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying: 2 'Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, by their polls; 3 from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: ye shall number them by their hosts
Numbers Ch. 2/- 32 These are they that were numbered of the children of Israel by their fathers' houses; all that were numbered of the camps according to their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty. 33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel;


quote:

8. The Hebrew Bible is the first alphabetical book.

In order to refute this, I will you to confirm what your definition of alphabetical book is and supply your date (with supporting evidence) of the oldest known copy of the Hebrew Bible.


I already did. Any multi-page continueing narrative [book, scroll, parchment, etc] in alphabetical mode older than the Hebrew will suffice.

quote:

9. The Hebrew Bible is "the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel".

I can refute this one straight away. Lots of books discuss the history of Abraham and Israel. Grab any encyclopedia. Or try googling "the history of abraham and Israel". You will be given many, many sources. Here is one source for the history of Abraham and Israel : http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html. This proves that the Hebrew Bible is NOT the only source for the History of Abraham and the Bible.


The precedence factor rules. Otherwise I can be the author of all of Shakespeare's works.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-26-2011 2:59 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 6 of 43 (635219)
09-28-2011 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Butterflytyrant
09-26-2011 7:56 PM


Re: The important part of the claim...
quote:
One element I will need you to clarify is which terms you would like me to use. I have read that some prefer the term Hebrew Bible over Old Testament. I am happy to do this if this is if you are of this group. Also, some use the word 'Torah' to describe only the first 5 books of Moses (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy) or the entire Jewish Bible or Tanakh. I will use whichever terminology you suggest in order for us both to be talking about the same thing.

The term OT is a political stunt and I see it as derogatory. It is called the Hebrew bible in english. As can be seen by your own posts, it is not old but very active in contemporary discussions of science & history today in all forums, more so than any other theological writings. Old infers negated - yet its laws rule us today exclusively.

quote:

The other hiccup I have is with finding the first actual recordings of the claims. In the original post, I had accepted the Dead Sea Scrolls (250BCE) as the oldest recording of the claims made. However I have come to understand that many of the claims do not appear in the Dead Sea Scrolls. A fair bit of Genesis does appear, but not the Creation Narrative. I could be wrong and have just not found it though. In this case, let me know where I can find this information and I will be happy to accept the date. You will have to do this with each one of the claims. You will need to provide a source to the first recording of the claims.

All of the writings and books are in the scrolls parcel, excepting only the book of Esther, which was written in Babylon 2,700 years ago, after the Babylon invasion and exodus there. This book also mentions the Hebrew bible and a host of books which were obviously written earlier - which I account as proof of the Hebrew writings' datings.

quote:

To provide an example of what I mean using an unrelated issue - Many of the laws that we have discussed in previous debates seem to be oral only up to the 2nd century ACE. The Talmud was completed in the 5th century ACE. The oldest full copy of this code of laws is the Leiden Jerusalem Talmud. This manuscript has been dated 1289ACE. If we were to be debating about the oldest recording of a set of laws, then using 250BCE from the Dead Sea Scrolls would be incorrect.


You may be confusing laws with traditions. There are 613 laws [commandments] in the Hebrew Mosaic - the five books. These are all active today.

quote:

I am all to happy to be corrected on any of the dates that I suggest. I will provide sources for any of the dating that I use also. The Hebrew Bible is your field so I dont mind being directed as long as you can back up the claims with a verifiable source.


The Hebrew bible is also Christianity's field - it is its foundation.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-26-2011 7:56 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 8 of 43 (635392)
09-29-2011 1:08 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Butterflytyrant
09-28-2011 4:07 AM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:
A scroll is not a book. A piece of parchment is not a book. A book is a book. A scroll is not 'multi-page'. It is one continuous page.

This one you have lost and I won't indulge with you further on it. The term 'multi-page continueing narrative' was qualified and embedded, prempting your runaway nonesense. Think 'BOOK OF DUETERONOMY & BOOK OF KINGS'.

quote:
Yes I accept the scrolls' 250 BCE dates. This does not mean the writings were composed on that date, obviously it is much older, with 100's of copies found in the parcel, and 1000's of bits of writings, obviously destroyed in the fires of Rome which burned down all of Jerusalem city cubit by cubit. It is amazing that anything of the scrolls survived. While we do not have a 3,500 original scroll, which is believed to be contained in an arc hidden away or destroyed, we have loads of evidence [as opposed hard proof] of these writings being much earlier.

You use obvioulsy a few times in this post. And evidence as well. But you have provided nothing obvious and provided no evidence. You need to provide what you do have.

This is how you can present it - The first recording of the words "In the Beginning" can be found in x y z. Here is a source to check - Source :xyz.


No I don't. Your notion the 100's of copies of scrolls and 1000's of excerpts found were all originated in 250 BCE is utter nonesense.

quote:

I have provided you with an example of how to do this already.

Here is an example of how you would provide a source for a particular claim. The phrase "hop on pop" first appears in a book by Theodor Geisel (Dr Suess) in 1963. Here is a source for you to check : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hop_on_Pop.

What you need to do is state you claim (The phrase "hop on pop" first appears in a book by Theodor Geisel (Dr Suess) in 1963) and back it up with a verifiable source (Here is a source for you to check : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hop_on_Pop).

That is what you need to do.


No I do not. If 100's of copies of a scroll was found and dated to 250 BCE it means it was originated many centuries before. If a book speaks of a temple existing and we have proof that temple stood and was destroyed in 586 BCE it is proof of my position and negates your nonesense. Bite the bullet.

quote:

but more impacting are the dates, places, events and cross nation interactions mentioned in the Hebrew bible - almost all of these descriptions have been vindicated. The writings have blah blah blahdy blah

How about we keep the introduction of new random unverified claims to a minimum (none at all would be good) and stick to the ones in the OP.


I agree your nonesense should be considered nonesense.

quote:

my queery - The Hebrew Bible is Unique in its claims. I am not sure what IamJoseph means by this. It could be that the Hebrew Bible is unique in making these claims. If the Hebrew Bible was first at something, then it would be unique at that time. It will stop being unique until someone else makes the same statements. I will need IamJoseph to clarify this statement.
your reply - Yes, of course it is unique. It introduced many things, including creationism, monotheism, science, medicine, democrasy, what became known as evolution, judiciary laws, the first cencus in the millions, the first mention of the philistines, mount ararat, mount nebo, the first king, the first human name, the oldest active calendar. One can go on and on. That is unique.

Unique - Being the only one of its kind

Creationism is the religious belief that humanity, life, the Earth, and the universe are the creation of a supernatural being. This is not unique to the Hebrew Bible. Another example: Hindu beliefs

Monotheism is the belief in the existence of a single (one) god. This is not unique to the Hebrew Bible. Other exampls: Christianity, Islam


The Hindu bible affirms Genesis is correct and credible. The Creation account of Genesis is unique, notwithstanding there are other accounts. The premise of Christianity and Islam comes from the Hebrew bible - they are not unique.

quote:

Science is "knowledge attained through study or practice," or "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world. (Source: http://www.sciencemadesimple.com/science-definition.html). This is not unique to the Hebrew Bible. The Quran contains examples of science. Here is a link to a good science textbook : http://www.amazon.com/...iology-9th-Jane-Reece/dp/0321558235. Not unique to the Hebrew Bible.


There is no disproof or alternative of the Genesis account from science. It is why this issue is still hotly debated.

quote:

Medicine -
1.a. The science of diagnosing, treating, or preventing disease and other damage to the body or mind.
b. The branch of this science encompassing treatment by drugs, diet, exercise, and other nonsurgical means.
2. The practice of medicine.
(Source: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/medicine)
Medicine is not unique to the Hebrew Bible. Here is a link to another book about anatomy and physiology : http://www.amazon.com/...siology-Elaine-Marieb/dp/0805359095. Not unique to the Hebrew Bible.

The first seperation of medicine, a faculty of science, was first seperated from the occult here:

quote:
THE FIRST DISCRIPTION OF MALIGNANCY IDENTIFICATION:

Leviticus Chapter 13/2 When a man shall have in the skin of his flesh a rising, or a scab, or a bright spot, and it become in the skin of his flesh the plague of leprosy, then he shall be brought unto Aaron the priest, or unto one of his sons the priests. 3 And the priest shall look upon the plague in the skin of the flesh; and if the hair in the plague be turned white, and the appearance of the plague be deeper than the skin of his flesh, it is the plague of leprosy; and the priest shall look on him, and pronounce him unclean. 4 And if the bright spot be white in the skin of his flesh, and the appearance thereof be not deeper than the skin, and the hair thereof be not turned white, then the priest shall shut up him that hath the plague seven days. 5 And the priest shall look on him the seventh day; and, behold, if the plague stay in its appearance, and the plague be not spread in the skin, then the priest shall shut him up seven days more. 6 And the priest shall look on him again the seventh day; and, behold, if the plague be dim, and the plague be not spread in the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him clean: it is a scab; and he shall wash his clothes, and be clean. 7 But if the scab spread abroad in the skin, after that he hath shown himself to the priest for his cleansing, he shall show himself to the priest again. 8 And the priest shall look, and, behold, if the scab be spread in the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is leprosy. {P}

9 When the plague of leprosy is in a man, then he shall be brought unto the priest. 10 And the priest shall look, and, behold, if there be a white rising in the skin, and it have turned the hair white, and there be quick raw flesh in the rising, 11 it is an old leprosy in the skin of his flesh, and the priest shall pronounce him unclean; he shall not shut him up; for he is unclean. 12 And if the leprosy break out abroad in the skin, and the leprosy cover all the skin of him that hath the plague from his head even to his feet, as far as appeareth to the priest; 13 then the priest shall look; and, behold, if the leprosy have covered all his flesh, he shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague; it is all turned white: he is clean. 14 But whensoever raw flesh appeareth in him, he shall be unclean. 15 And the priest shall look on the raw flesh, and pronounce him unclean; the raw flesh is unclean: it is leprosy. 16 But if the raw flesh again be turned into white, then he shall come unto the priest; 17 and the priest shall look on him; and, behold, if the plague be turned into white, then the priest shall pronounce him clean that hath the plague: he is clean. {P}

18 And when the flesh hath in the skin thereof a boil, and it is healed, 19 and in the place of the boil there is a white rising, or a bright spot, reddish-white, then it shall be shown to the priest. 20 And the priest shall look; and, behold, if the appearance thereof be lower than the skin, and the hair thereof be turned white, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is the plague of leprosy, it hath broken out in the boil. 21 But if the priest look on it, and, behold, there be no white hairs therein, and it be not lower than the skin, but be dim, then the priest shall shut him up seven days. 22 And if it spread abroad in the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a plague. 23 But if the bright spot stay in its place, and be not spread, it is the scar of the boil; and the priest shall pronounce him clean. {S} 24 Or when the flesh hath in the skin thereof a burning by fire, and the quick flesh of the burning become a bright spot, reddish-white, or white; 25 then the priest shall look upon it; and, behold, if the hair in the bright spot be turned white, and the appearance thereof be deeper than the skin, it is leprosy, it hath broken out in the burning; and the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is the plague of leprosy. 26 But if the priest look on it, and, behold, there be no white hair in the bright spot, and it be no lower than the skin, but be dim; then the priest shall shut him up seven days. 27 And the priest shall look upon him the seventh day; if it spread abroad in the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is the plague of leprosy. 28 And if the bright spot stay in its place, and be not spread in the skin, but be dim, it is the rising of the burning, and the priest shall pronounce him clean; for it is the scar of the burning. {P}

29 And when a man or woman hath a plague upon the head or upon the beard, 30 then the priest shall look on the plague; and, behold, if the appearance thereof be deeper than the skin, and there be in it yellow thin hair, then the priest shall pronounce him unclean: it is a scall, it is leprosy of the head or of the beard. 31 And if the priest look on the plague of the scall, and, behold, the appearance thereof be not deeper than the skin, and there be no black hair in it, then the priest shall shut up him that hath the plague of the scall seven days. 32 And in the seventh day the priest shall look on the plague; and, behold, if the scall be not spread, and there be in it no yellow hair, and the appearance of the scall be not deeper than the skin, 33 then he shall be shaven, but the scall shall he not shave; and the priest shall shut up him that hath the scall seven days more. 34 And in the seventh day the priest shall look on the scall; and, behold, if the scall be not spread in the skin, and the appearance thereof be not deeper than the skin, then the priest shall pronounce him clean; and he shall wash his clothes, and be clean. 35 But if the scall spread abroad in the skin after his cleansing, 36 then the priest shall look on him; and, behold, if the scall be spread in the skin, the priest shall not seek for the yellow hair: he is unclean. 37 But if the scall stay in its appearance, and black hair be grown up therein; the scall is healed, he is clean; and the priest shall pronounce him clean. {S} 38 And if a man or a woman have in the skin of their flesh bright spots, even white bright spots; 39 then the priest shall look; and, behold, if the bright spots in the skin of their flesh be of a dull white, it is a tetter, it hath broken out in the skin: he is clean. {S} 40 And if a man's hair be fallen off his head, he is bald; yet is he clean. 41 And if his hair be fallen off from the front part of his head, he is forehead-bald; yet is he clean. 42 But if there be in the bald head, or the bald forehead, a reddish-white plague, it is leprosy breaking out in his bald head, or his bald forehead. 43 Then the priest shall look upon him; and, behold, if the rising of the plague be reddish-white in his bald head, or in his bald forehead, as the appearance of leprosy in the skin of the flesh, 44 he is a leprous man, he is unclean; the priest shall surely pronounce him unclean: his plague is in his head. 45 And the leper in whom the plague is, his clothes shall be rent, and the hair of his head shall go loose, and he shall cover his upper lip, and shall cry: 'Unclean, unclean.' 46 All the days wherein the plague is in him he shall be unclean; he is unclean; he shall dwell alone; without the camp shall his dwelling be. {S} 47 And when the plague of leprosy is in a garment, whether it be a woolen garment, or a linen garment; 48 or in the warp, or in the woof, whether they be of linen, or of wool; or in a skin, or in any thing made of skin. 49 If the plague be greenish or reddish in the garment, or in the skin, or in the warp, or in the woof, or in any thing of skin, it is the plague of leprosy, and shall be shown unto the priest. 50 And the priest shall look upon the plague, and shut up that which hath the plague seven days. 51 And he shall look on the plague on the seventh day: if the plague be spread in the garment, or in the warp, or in the woof, or in the skin, whatever service skin is used for, the plague is a malignant leprosy: it is unclean. 52 And he shall burn the garment, or the warp, or the woof, whether it be of wool or of linen, or any thing of skin, wherein the plague is; for it is a malignant leprosy; it shall be burnt in the fire. 53 And if the priest shall look, and, behold, the plague be not spread in the garment, or in the warp, or in the woof, or in any thing of skin; 54 then the priest shall command that they wash the thing wherein the plague is, and he shall shut it up seven days more. 55 And the priest shall look, after that the plague is washed; and, behold, if the plague have not changed its colour, and the plague be not spread, it is unclean; thou shalt burn it in the fire; it is a fret, whether the bareness be within or without. 56 And if the priest look, and, behold, the plague be dim after the washing thereof, then he shall rend it out of the garment, or out of the skin, or out of the warp, or out of the woof. 57 And if it appear still in the garment, or in the warp, or in the woof, or in any thing of skin, it is breaking out, thou shalt burn that wherein the plague is with fire. 58 And the garment, or the warp, or the woof, or whatsoever thing of skin it be, which thou shalt wash, if the plague be departed from them, then it shall be washed the second time, and shall be clean. 59 This is the law of the plague of leprosy in a garment of wool or linen, or in the warp, or in the woof, or in any thing of skin, to pronounce it clean, or to pronounce it unclean. {P}

QUARANTINE [INCLUDING THE EXSTENCE OF CONTAGIOUS AND INFECTICIOUS DESEASES]: Numbers Chapter 5

1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses, saying: 2 'Command the children of Israel, that they put out of the camp every leper, and every one that hath an issue, and whosoever is unclean by the dead; 3 both male and female shall ye put out, without the camp shall ye put them; that they defile not their camp, in the midst whereof I dwell.'


quote:

Democracy (Greek terms demos (meaning "people") and kratos (meaning "power"). Democracy was developed in ancient Greece around 500BCE. (Source: http://www.smjuhsd.k12.ca.us/.../cp/instruct/greek_demos.pdf) Not unique to the Hebrew Bible. Also, pre Dead Sea Scrolls.

'LET THE MAJORITY DECIDE' is not democrasy and leaves the population open to great corruption - else Hitler and Sadaam Hussein were the most democratically elected humans. Democrasy according to the Hebrew bible, which predates the Greeks is only as follows:

Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou bear witness in a cause to turn aside after a multitude to pervert justice; (Ex. 23:2) (negative).

To give the decision according to the majority, when there is a difference of opinion among the members. (Ex. 23:2) (affirmative).

Not to hear one of the parties to a suit in the absence of the other party (Ex. 23:1) (CCN65).

To examine witnesses thoroughly (Deut. 13:15) (affirmative).

quote:

The Theory of Evolution did not come from the Hebrew Bible.

Judiciary Laws are also not unique to the Hebrew Bible. Code of Hammurabi, circa 1700BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_Hammurabi). Pre Dead Sea Scrolls. Not unique to the Hebrew Bible.


All of the factors in Darwin's evolution cmes from Genesis, including:

The first seperartion of life forms in their correct protocol, and by the most fundamental factors of terrain and habitat. Natural Seection occurs via a seed output from the host parents, with a directive program which ensures continuety of the same species. There is no evolution without these factors. Darwin is totally wrong in subscribing to external factors impacting and leaving out internal ones - there is no evolution without Genesis' seed factor!

Hamurabi is post Abraham and Moses.

quote:

The other claims are either being dealt with individually or are not part of this thread. None of the items you have claimed to be unique are actually unique. Try to stay on topic.


I am countering your claims with proof. You are not putting up any counters: please show us another document older than Genesis which lists life form groupings or that repro is based on the seed of the host parents?

quote:

With regards to the phrase "in the beginning" being the first recording of the universe being finite you have said -

The point is you cannot show another earlier recording of the universe being finite. You don't need a text, but you do need evidence. I gave you that above and you cannot show such equivalence elsewhere. Nor does it matter if you use the 250 BCE date - it is still the oldest record of a finite universe.

You have yet to provide a verifiable source that shows that the words "In the Beginning" appear in the dead Sea Scrolls. I do need a text. This is what you have claimed to have. The first recording of these words. Provide a source to back up your claim. Without you providing the information that supports your claim, it is refuted.


There are 100s of copies of Genesis in the dead sea scroll and these are now freely available on the net. The case is proven, whether you admit this or not.

quote:

my comment - Ok, so it does not actually mention species. And it does not match the definition of species. It is a grouping into kinds. This is fair enough. So, to refute this, I need to find a recording, prior to 250BCE, of animals being grouped in some manner. Any manner. The 'kinds' grouping system (airborne, waterborne etc) do not match current scientific groupings of animals so I need not provide an accurate grouping method.
your reply - If it mentioned species we can be sure it is a fake - the term was invented recently. Of curse, 'KINDS' is more authentic of its period, yet applicable today. Of course, seperation by terrain and habitat is more fundamental than skeletal and hidden genes. The first thing one sees of a zebra and a fish is terrain not their hidden organs.

As I indicated in a later post, you will need to provide a verifiable source that shows the first recording of this claim. What you need to do is supply the information that has lead you to believe the claim that you are making. When you have supplied the required information, I can begin my search for a seperation of groups of animals in any other text.


Nonesense. The first grouping of life forms is in Genesis. The term 'KINDS' is the only and best one for what later became species. There is no other reading of the verses in Genesis.

quote:

Does OK mean you agree Genesis first recorded life form groupings - you are not forthcoming here, which leads only to a circular arguement?

Your problems with the English language have lead you to this conclusion. I know that it is pointless to correct you though so I wont bother. What you have said here has no relevance to what I actually said.


What does OK mean?

quote:

You need to show DAY and WEEK. The seven week cycle was required to be stated before accounting harvest periods and rremembering anniversary laws which followed.

You need to provide a verifiable source that backs up your claim. You need to provide the information that has lead you to believe that this claim first appeared in the Hebrew Bible. You need to provide a link to a source so I can verify your claim. Until you do this, your claim is refuted. If/when you do provide the evidence, I need to provide any document that contains reference to days and weeks dated prior to your document.


No, I don't.

quote:

This says Genesis is intelligent and it's writings are in the correct protocol.

How about we leave out the random conjecture and opinions and stick to the facts.


DAY & WEEK, first appearing in Genesis is hardly conjecture. Its hard copy.

quote:

There is no history pre-Hebrew calendar: no names, nations, wars, kings, etc. In contrast, we have a calendar listing events of 5772 years, and substanially evidenced, to the extent of anything which can be evidenced. Show us an earlier reference of Mount Ararat - or a name older than Adam? So I am not using the Hebrew writings as its own self evidence; we have no alternate factors which can serve as a counter.

There are many unverifiable and incorrect statements in this quote. Pretty much all of it is wrong. But I dont care. I have a list of your claims that I am interested in discussing. Most of your comment is unrelated random blather. The key issue, the issue we are actually debating is your claim that the Hebrew Calendar is the first recorded calendar. What you need to do is provide a source showing this calendar. It needs to be a source that can be checked. The rest of your comment is again unrelated blather. Provide your evidence to support your claim. Until you do, your claim remains refuted.


You have to show an older active calendar - you have not. Which part is blather?

quote:

my comment - IamJosephs claim = The Hebrew Bible contains the first recorded census.
I have asked for clarification of what you mean and received this reply.

- Look for it!

your further clarification of your claim. - Because you are expected to know what you are arguing against.

It is your fucking claim! How am I supposed to know exactly what YOUR CLAIM is?

The Hebrew bible contains the first scientific cencus

Provide your source. Provide a verifiable source that supports this claim. Until you do, your claim is refuted.

as well as the first graduation of a tribal group to a nation - the word NATION OF ISRAEL is used after the cencus following the Egyptian exodus, retained thereafter thoughout the remaining five books, with sub-tota.... blah blah blah.... and grand total are tallied, with names of tribal leaders and in fractions of counts. If you know of an earlier cencus than please enlighten us?

You use the words earlier cencus. Earlier than when exactly. You have not provided a verifiable source that shows the earliest recording. You have provided this scripture -

Numbers Chapter 1
1 And the LORD spoke unto Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first day of the second month, in the second year after they were come out of the land of Egypt, saying: 2 'Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of names, every male, by their polls; 3 from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: ye shall number them by their hosts
Numbers Ch. 2/- 32 These are they that were numbered of the children of Israel by their fathers' houses; all that were numbered of the camps according to their hosts were six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty. 33 But the Levites were not numbered among the children of Israel;

Great. You are halfway there. Now you need to provide a verifiable source that shows the earliest recording of these verses. Until you do, your claim is refuted.


No sir, its not negatable and I am not half way there. I gave you hard copy proof of the world's first scientific cencus. Bite the bullet like a mench.

quote:

I asked you to provide your definition of an alphabetical book, your reply -

I already did. Any multi-page continueing narrative [book, scroll, parchment, etc] in alphabetical mode older than the Hebrew will suffice

Yes, you did. But you provided a definition that does not define the word book. I am sure you will not understand why this may be confusing. Basically, I need to provide anything with writting on it older than the Dead Sea Scrolls (250BCE).


You have lost this one as well. Bite the bullet.

quote:

This is your claim - 9. The Hebrew Bible is "the only source for the history of Abraham and Israel".
This is me refuting your claim - I can refute this one straight away. Lots of books discuss the history of Abraham and Israel. Grab any encyclopedia. Or try googling "the history of abraham and Israel". You will be given many, many sources. Here is one source for the history of Abraham and Israel : http://www.israel-a-history-of.com/story-of-abraham.html. This proves that the Hebrew Bible is NOT the only source for the History of Abraham and the Bible.

This is your reply - The precedence factor rules. Otherwise I can be the author of all of Shakespeare's works.

Precedence? Precedence does not change the fact that I have refuted your statement. You made a claim. It was wrong. I have provided evidence why it was wrong. Point refuted.


OK, let's play looney tunes. I am now the first one to say the sun will rise tomorrow. The precedence factor is hereby negated. Happy?

quote:

I asked you to provide verifiable sources for your claims and you replied with this -

All of the writings and books are in the scrolls parcel, excepting only the book of Esther, which was written in Babylon 2,700 years ago, after the Babylon invasion and exodus there. This book also mentions the Hebrew bible and a host of books which were obviously written earlier - which I account as proof of the Hebrew writings' datings.

Can you tell me where your verifiable source is in there? I know that "Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon have been discovered except for the book of Esther". (Source: http://www.centuryone.com/25dssfacts.html). Fragments. Not entire books with all chapters and verses. What you need to do is actually verify your statements. Until you provide a verifiable source to support your claims, they remain refuted.


Duh! Tell me smart/a. If we have a book which mentions a temple in 250 BCE, and proof a temple was destroyed in 586 BCE in the same location - what do you think that means!?

quote:

This is the first actual claim to be dealt with -

The Hebrew Bible is the first recording of the claim that the universe being finite.

This is your claim. You need to support this claim with evidence. You need to provide a link to a Hebrew Bible that has the words "in the beginning" in relation to the creation narrative. You need to provide a date for this document. Until you do, your claim remains refuted.

Deal with one claim at a time.


I did deal with this with no possibility of confusion. It is not refutable by any means.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-28-2011 4:07 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 4:13 AM IamJoseph has responded
 Message 39 by RCS, posted 12-22-2011 6:36 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 10 of 43 (635419)
09-29-2011 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Butterflytyrant
09-29-2011 4:13 AM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:
Your understanding if the definition of the word unique is wrong. This is where your confusion over you claims of unique exists. I wont be your English teacher.

The creation story in Genesis is unique, containing a host of premises not seen elsewhere, including geo-historical locations and premises which are now embedded in science.

quote:

my comment - A scroll is not a book. A piece of parchment is not a book. A book is a book. A scroll is not 'multi-page'. It is one continuous page.
your reply - This one you have lost and I won't indulge with you further on it. The term 'multi-page continueing narrative' was qualified and embedded, prempting your runaway nonesense. Think 'BOOK OF DUETERONOMY & BOOK OF KINGS'.

Think, 'BOOK OF DUETERONOMY & BOOK OF KINGS'. And you cannot produce a scroll or a book with a multi-page narrative in the alphabetical mode. Why is that?

quote:

Lets deal with the claims one at a time and see if we can get anywhere.

This is the first claim -

The Hebrew Bible is the first recording of the claim that the universe being finite.

You are using the words "In the Beginning" as the basis of this claim.


Its not my claim - its in the text and not open to any other reading in its context or wording.

quote:

You have said that these words are contained in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You have not provided a source to verify this claim. You have just said that it appears in the Dead Sea Scrolls.


Will it make any difference to your desperate and continuing nonsense?

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/...ead_Sea_Scrolls_.28books_found.29

Dead Sea Scrolls (books found)Books Ranked According to Number of Manuscripts found (top 16)[35]

Books No. found
Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4


quote:

From my research, I do not believe that those words do appear in the Dead Sea Scrolls.

You need to prove that they do appear in the dead Sea Scrolls or your claim is refuted.


Research - what research!? 24 copies of The Book of Genesis have been found in the scrolls parcel. Hello?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 4:13 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 10:15 PM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 12 of 43 (635592)
09-29-2011 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Butterflytyrant
09-29-2011 10:15 PM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:
You are correct that most of the Hebrew Bible can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. What you dont seem to understand is that most of it is in fragments. Over 100 000 fragments. The words "In the Beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth" do not appear on any one scroll.


You are getting more desperate as you post! Your assumption the first verse of Genesis is open to questioning is ridiculous. Do you even realize taking your wild assumption of an inferred later addition of the opening verse still renders the verse as first no matter which dating you want to use - are you even aware till a few centuries ago, the Hebrew bible is the only theology which did NOT say the earth is flat!?

Be good to yourself and accept defeat!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 10:15 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 11:24 PM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 14 of 43 (635605)
09-30-2011 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Butterflytyrant
09-29-2011 11:24 PM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:
What was the point of any of that? I have posted no assumptions or inferences. I have provided facts backed up with sources. Check the sources. They are direct translations of the scrolls. The quote can be checked. Just click on the link. The dates can be checked, just click on the link.

Here are my reasons for supplying the date 1CE to 100CE again -


I already posted a list of the scrolls found. Of note this list includes the 'BOOK' of Genesis:

quote:
Dead Sea Scrolls (books found)Books Ranked According to Number of Manuscripts found (top 16)[35]

Books No. found
Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4


I already defended the premise of your accusation the first verse is missing is bogus and even if this was the case, the runaway assumption that verse was never existent remains bogus. I also responded that whatever date you wish to use - be it even 1000 or 2000 years later, the first verse in Genesis remains the first and only writings which states the universe is finite: the premise of a finite universe was only established recently after the Hubble plank discovery!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 11:24 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 15 of 43 (635606)
09-30-2011 12:57 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Butterflytyrant
09-29-2011 11:24 PM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:
I wont be doing your work for you and finding the dates for any of your other claims. That is your job. If you cannot or will not supply verifiable dates (as I have done) then your claims are refuted by default.

Get the dates. This is your job. Or concede the other claims.


No sir, its not my job to cater to your nonsense. Any sane, half honest debater would acknowledge there is absolutely no reason to question the first verse of Genesis belonging to the verse verse in that book. There are loads of other evidencing reasons to confirm this but not required. Eg. the seperate translations in Hebrew, the Greek [Septuagint] and the Latin versions. The inference this verse was not in the scrolls or that it does not belong there is nothing other than shameless.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 11:24 PM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 20 of 43 (640633)
11-11-2011 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Butterflytyrant
09-29-2011 11:24 PM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are correct that most of the Hebrew Bible can be found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. What you dont seem to understand is that most of it is in fragments. Over 100 000 fragments. The words "In the Beginning God made the Heavens and the Earth" do not appear on any one scroll. There are actually two scrolls (4QGenb and 4QGenk) that have been combined in order to construct the sentence.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In one scroll (4QGenb) we have only the following words preserved for Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning Go made [ ].” Fortunately, another scroll contains this part of Genesis 1:1, “In the begin[ ] God [ ] the heavens and the earth.”


That is not a credible refutation of what is considered one of the greatest history proofs per se. While there are fragments and bits containing partial verses and words, these have been put together by the world's best experts, crossed against other fragments of the same writings in multiple scrolls, and this constitutes 100% proof of its dating and content.

Additionally, there is the Greek Septuagint of 300 BCE, described in Greek archives and which led to the KJ latin edition. This says the work was at least a few centuries older than the date of production of these scrolls. Further back, we have no such alphabetical books from any source whatsoever, for upto 800 years after the given dates of the original Hebrew scroll. Such writings are also backed by 100's of relics and monuments which writings align with the content seen in the scrolls, such as the 2,900 year Tel Dan discovery; the 586 BCE Babylon destruction recorded in Jeremia; the second temple under Ezra; and a 3,500 year Egyptian stone stelle; these confirm the book of Kings and the book of Exodus as having real history behind it.

When this is compared with writings much later, we see greater proof in the older Hebrew writings. The scrolls can become very disturbing also, as in a host of new scrolls found, which describe small topical details of the period, yet has no mention whatsoever of anything contained in the Gospels - which dating is smack in the middle of the scrolls. It questions, or even indicates, the Gospels could not have been writen till the third century! This is just an opinion and I may be in error of such a conclusion, but it is still a controversial item.

One has to be honest in their refutation, as opposed negating what is clearly one of the best affirmations of the ancient history of the planet via such implausible and unreasonable rejections.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Butterflytyrant, posted 09-29-2011 11:24 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-12-2011 10:38 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 21 of 43 (640634)
11-11-2011 7:33 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by Butterflytyrant
11-09-2011 11:57 AM


The links refer to picture writings. There would have been a mode of accounting days, but there is no way one can say the DAY [as in evening and morning] can be seen in those links. These are conclusions derived from examining the pictures, e.g. a roof denotes a house; the sun or moon denotes a day; etc. The week was also first made as a pi like number in Genesis to calculate seasons, harvests and pregnancies, as well as a diarised record of history spanning 3000 years, Adam to Moses.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-09-2011 11:57 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-12-2011 12:46 PM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 24 of 43 (640762)
11-12-2011 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Butterflytyrant
11-12-2011 12:46 PM


quote:

The Armana Tablet is in cuneiform characters in the diplomatic language of the day, Akkadian. As are the Armana letters.

The papyrus of Ani is in cursive heiroglyphs.


Cursive means nothing. The writings of the Armana are picture image writings in blocks, words represented by images; if you give the word cursive as alphabetical of such stone etchings of drawings, then you would have had loads of alphabetical books: where are they!?

Further, the verse you quote does not sanction what is a day, but merely 'today', as in 'when'. This is very different from the application seen in the Genesis creation chapter, where the day and week are introduced as time divisions impacting the planet, when no history or life forms yet occured, noting what constitutes a 'day' - namely the rising and setting of the sun. The advent of 'hours' was yet not applicable in this instant. Chalk and cheese!

quote:

Can you give me any logical reason why cuniform and cursive herioglyphs are not acceptable? Preferably a reason that you have not made up.


Did I make up the absence of a single aplphabetical book - of nations which were much older and mightier? Of note, I am not saying there was no writings. Hebrew was a late comer in the ancient world, 1,500 years after the Pyramids were built, well after India had a thriving commerce. Yet the Hebrew came up with the first advanced mode of writings, including the most advanced content; even the first 'historical' writings with identifiable names, places, events and datings, and remained so for some 800 years thereafter. Such is not seen in Egyptian, Babylonian, Phoenecian, Sumerian, Indian, Chinese or any place else. Its a fact, not my opinion. Its also mysterious that a group of desert wondering slaves would do so - there was no place to lift off from!

quote:

The week was also first made as a pi like number in Genesis to calculate seasons, harvests and pregnancies, as well as a diarised record of history spanning 3000 years, Adam to Moses.

There is no source for this information. I am guessing you just made this up as well. In all of my research I have not read anything like this.


quote:
All you are doing is creating questions to try to avoid facing the real issues.

What the fuck is a pi like number? the week was introduced to calculate seasons, harvets and pregnancies???

Where do you come up with this shit?


The week was made as a measurement constant, a time period with definitive impacts as a standout. The division of seven days as a week, and the division of weeks for harvest, was introduced as governing constants. France tried to alter this constant, overturning the 7 days to 10 days - it failed! Understand what 'solemn assembly' refers to in terms of days and weeks:

quote:
Duet 16/8. Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread; and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the LORD thy God; thou shalt do no work therein. {S} 9 Seven weeks shalt thou number unto thee; from the time the sickle is first put to the standing corn shalt thou begin to number seven weeks.

quote:

There is no 'diarised record of history spanning 3000 years'

Stop making things up.


Lol! The period is derived from the Hebrew calendar, the oldest active one today and the most accurate. It is diarised with events, years and time via numbers, dates, dod & dob's, and calcuable. Both the day and the date of the giving of the 10 commandments can thus be verified of a period of 5772 years, from Adam to Moses [Mosaic five books]; thereafter by follow-up writings [Book of Kings; Isaiah; etc]; thereafter to today. Why accuse me of not reading!

quote:

Have another go and this time try to find some real information with sources. If you cant, just accept that you are wrong on this one.


Please tell us the date of the Pharoah's birthday!?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-12-2011 12:46 PM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 12:21 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 25 of 43 (640763)
11-12-2011 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Butterflytyrant
11-12-2011 10:38 AM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
There is more than sufficient evidence to affirm the dating of the Hebrew bible, with no reason to question it. The Hebrew writings is varied both in kind and degree from anything similar anywhere. If we read there was a war with Egypt and the Hebrews, it is evidenced in an Egyptian stone relic, with the mention of the word 'Israel' and 'war' dated 3,500 years ago. Beat that! When we read that Mount Nebo is in Moab [Jordan today] and that it offered a grand view of a whole country, you can go to Jordan today as one of 1000's of tourists do and enjoy this view. Beat that!

These are not retrospective writings because these stats were introduced here, with no previous record of it. It is like the words Palestinians [Philistines]; Jerusalem; Hebron; Israel; Abraham - these words are only known today via the Hebrew bible exclusively. You are downplaying a host of new introductions, diminishing and negating them, then employing false items as transcending. It is called blatant denial.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-12-2011 10:38 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 12:38 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 28 of 43 (640779)
11-13-2011 5:14 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Butterflytyrant
11-13-2011 12:38 AM


Re: How about you read my questions and try to answer them?
An interesting 3rd century BCE pre-Christian, pre-Roman relic from an independent source. It claims the five books were written by Moses, who introduced alphabetical writings to the Israelites, and that this was passed on to the Phoenecians, then to the Greeks. I have held this view in opposition to the widespread acceptance of it, because we have zero evidence the alphabets came from elsewhere, and loads of hard copy evidence of ancient Hebrew alphabeticals. Such a relic gives credibility to the Hebrew writings.

quote:
Eupolemus

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

This article is about Jewish historian . For other uses, see Eupolemus (disambiguation) .
Eupolemus was a Jewish historian whose work survives only in five fragments (or possibly six fragments) in the Eusebius of Caesarea's Praeparatio Evangelica (hereafter abbreviated as Praep.) embedded in quotations from the historian Alexander Polyhistor and in the Stromata (hereafter abbreviated as Strom.) of Clement of Alexandria.
A sixth passage which Polyhistor attributes to Eupolemus in Eusebius' quotations of Polyhistor is usually considered spurious as being dissimilar to the other passages quoted and has come to be called Pseudo-Eupolemus.
Style and vocabulary indicate the writing as also originally in Greek and the date of composition of the seemingly genuine passages is about 158/7 BC. That the author dates his work by the Seleucids rather than the Ptolemies suggests Palestinian rather than Egyptian origin. It has been speculated that the author might be the Eupolemus who was ambassador of Judas Maccabeus to Rome as found in 1 Maccabees 8.17f and 2 Maccabees 4.11.[1]

Contents

The fragments usually considered Eupolemus' genuine work are:
• A statement that Moses was the first wise man, that he taught the alphabet to the Jews who passed it on to the Phoenicians who passed it on to the Greeks, and that Moses first wrote laws for the Jews (Praep. 9.26.1).


quote:

If we read there was a war with Egypt and the Hebrews, it is evidenced in an Egyptian stone relic, with the mention of the word 'Israel' and 'war' dated 3,500 years ago. Beat that!

Source?


Source:

quote:
Merneptah Stele

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Merneptah Stele (JE 31408) from the Cairo Museum.
The Merneptah Stele — also known as the Israel Stele or Victory Stele of Merneptah — is an inscription by the Ancient Egyptian king Merneptah (reign:1213 to 1203 BC), which appears on the reverse side of a granite stele erected by the king Amenhotep III. It was discovered by Flinders Petrie in 1896 at Thebes.

The stele has gained much fame and notoriety for being the only Ancient Egyptian document generally accepted as mentioning "Isrir" or "Israel". It is the earliest known attestation of the demonym Israelite. For this reason, many scholars refer to it as the "Israel stele".

Content

Libyans (Tjeḥenu) are described by determinatives: foreign person + people + foreign country (=state/country of Libyan people)
The black granite stela primarily commemorates a victory in a campaign against the Libu and Meshwesh Libyans and their Sea People allies, but its final two lines refer to a prior military campaign in Canaan in which Merneptah states that he defeated Ashkelon, Gezer, Yanoam and Israel among others.[1]


quote:

When we read that Mount Nebo is in Moab [Jordan today] and that it offered a grand view of a whole country, you can go to Jordan today as one of 1000's of tourists do and enjoy this view. Beat that!

Pointless statement also witbh no source. This proves nothing with regards to dates.


Firstly, the detail of Mount Nebo is geographically and historically correct; secondly it is the first recording of this stat; the ds scrolls alone suffices here. Moab did not even have writings till relatively recent times.

Its a sign of insanity to keep rejecting the irrefutable.

quote:

In the one post you say the word Israel appears on an Egyptian stelle and the the Hebrew Bible is the exclusive source of the word Israel.


You are manufacturing negations with ubsurdities. There is no contradiction that Israel is mentioned in an Egytpian stelle - the people were called as Israel; its source remains the Hebrew bible. Why twist a proof as dis-proof?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 12:38 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 11:37 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 29 of 43 (640781)
11-13-2011 5:33 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Butterflytyrant
11-13-2011 12:21 AM


Re: Another large message that says nothing
quote:
No one has thought that heiroglyphics were mere 'picture writings' since the early 1800's. I am honestly not surprised that you are over two centuries behind in your knowledge.

Surprise, surprise again! HIEROGLYPHS are pictures - not alphabeticals. It is a well known fact ancient Egypt was not vested in alphabetical writings despite its advantage of time and power. Perhaps you should cease making bold cursive statements in every post till you at least get something right?

quote:

HIEROGLYPHS

. . . . HIEROGLYPHS are pictures that were used to write the ancient Egyptian language. In the beginning hieroglyphic signs were used to keep records of the king's possessions. Scribes could easily make these records by drawing a picture of a cow or a boat followed by a number. But as the language became more complex more pictures were needed. Eventually the language consisted of more then 750 individual signs.
http://www.egyptartsite.com/glyph.html



This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 12:21 AM Butterflytyrant has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 10:41 AM IamJoseph has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2568 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 32 of 43 (640879)
11-13-2011 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Butterflytyrant
11-13-2011 10:41 AM


DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE.
Like millions, you are shakled with an agenda based dis-history from Europe - this has seeped into dictionaries and encyclopedia and universities as if representing true historical reality. The pursuit for true reality cannot be based on belief but demands reality based hard proof:

Where are the 1000's of Egyptian alphabetical books predating the Hebrew - or of the Greek, Phonecian or whatever else you've got - which museums? Did those nations become dispersed around the world with exiles - were their nations sacked and razed, looted and spread across the world - or are their books lost? Did you ask such questions, ponder it and pursue the actual, real historical truth for proof? No you did not - that takes more than copy and paste.

The fundamental things apply.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Butterflytyrant, posted 11-13-2011 10:41 AM Butterflytyrant has not yet responded

  
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