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Author Topic:   Peanut Gallery - The Hebrew Bible (Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only)
AdminChuck
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 22 (635410)
09-29-2011 5:49 AM


"Peanut Gallery" topic for The Hebrew Bible (Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only)

Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph are NOT to post to this PG topic (see proposed PG guidelines here: Message 255).


  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 22 (635422)
09-29-2011 6:38 AM


"Dead Sea Scrolls now available to all online"
I was just searching the topic of the "dead Sea Scrolls" and found this fresh article:
Dead Sea Scrolls: Now, as the new year approaches on the Hebrew calendar, anyone can view, read and interact with five digitized Dead Sea Scrolls, the most complete of the eight the Israel Museum has in its collection.

By Charles Choi, LiveScience Contributor / September 27, 2011

The oldest known biblical manuscripts in existence, the Dead Sea Scrolls, are now online to everyone in the world with the aid of the Israel Museum in Jerusalem and Google.

http://www.csmonitor.com/...ow-available-to-all-online-VIDEO

Looks interesting. Im going to check it out.

Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.


  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1873 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


(1)
Message 3 of 22 (635423)
09-29-2011 6:41 AM


Bible Study
Butterflytyrant needs to remember that the claims he pulled came from the Bible Study Forum on the religious side, not the science side. Religious terminology will come into play, but even our definitions of the English word book includes this one:

Book: a : a set of written sheets of skin or paper or tablets of wood or ivory

The words translated as book and scroll are rather interchangeable in the Bible. See the parallels to Psalm 40:7.

Then I said, “Behold, I have come; in the scroll of the book it is written of me:

In the NT, biblion is sometimes translated as scroll and sometimes book even though it means a papyrus roll. Depends on the translation.

I feel that IamJoesph has clarified his terminology concerning the use of the word books in Message 4 and again in Message 8.

IamJoseph writes:

Books can be in scroll or parchment form, but it must show a multi-page continueing narrative. Msg 4

Think 'BOOK OF DUETERONOMY & BOOK OF KINGS. Msg 8

IamJoseph is correct in his terminology and isn't excluding scrolls when he uses the word "book".


Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 09-29-2011 6:56 AM purpledawn has responded
 Message 7 by IamJoseph, posted 09-30-2011 10:08 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 4 of 22 (635425)
09-29-2011 6:56 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
09-29-2011 6:41 AM


Re: Bible Study
purpledawn writes:

IamJoseph writes:

Books can be in scroll or parchment form, but it must show a multi-page continueing narrative. Msg 4

Think 'BOOK OF DUETERONOMY & BOOK OF KINGS. Msg 8

IamJoseph is correct in his terminology and isn't excluding scrolls when he uses the word "book".

Yeah. This is also from the article I posted above:

Most of the scrolls are parchment, or specially prepared animal skins, although some are papyrus. Most are written in Hebrew, although some are in Aramaic or Greek.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by purpledawn, posted 09-29-2011 6:41 AM purpledawn has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by purpledawn, posted 09-30-2011 6:40 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 1873 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 5 of 22 (635616)
09-30-2011 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by Chuck77
09-29-2011 6:56 AM


Re: Bible Study
BFT writes:

1. We will need to establish an agreed upon time for the first Hebrew Bible.

BFT seems to interchange the idea of oldest manuscript still existing and when the text is considered to have been written.

IAJ is correct that the oldest manuscripts we possess don't really tell us when the books or stories were first written. We can only speculate, but I feel that scholars have come up with various thoughts on the issue.

Dating the Bible

BFT needs to be more consistent with his questions.

IAJ also needs to do a better job of providing links to his support. That's what BFT wants.

We bring evidence to the thread. We don't make our opponents hunt for it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by Chuck77, posted 09-29-2011 6:56 AM Chuck77 has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by IamJoseph, posted 09-30-2011 10:01 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply
 Message 10 by Wollysaurus, posted 09-30-2011 1:44 PM purpledawn has responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2084 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 6 of 22 (635646)
09-30-2011 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by purpledawn
09-30-2011 6:40 AM


Re: Bible Study
quote:
We bring evidence to the thread. We don't make our opponents hunt for it.


Agreed. But one cannot abuse this premise. One cannot ask for proof of the blatant, and what is more blatant than questioning the most known verse of all writings, that the opening verse of Genesis is IN THE BEGINNING. A whole serialized debate was ensued over this matter and all because this well known verse was questioned to kingdom come for "PROOF". Lucky I never mentioned the alphabets start with ABC.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by purpledawn, posted 09-30-2011 6:40 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2084 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 7 of 22 (635648)
09-30-2011 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by purpledawn
09-29-2011 6:41 AM


Re: Bible Study
quote:

IamJoseph is correct in his terminology and isn't excluding scrolls when he uses the word "book".

Is not the issue made moot with the qualification of 'AN APHABETICAL MULTI-PAGE CONTINUEING NARRATIVE'? An auto defense mode which does not allow any agreement on anything is hardly a debate - it becomes just another fundamentalist, talibanic theological stance, while beating one's chest and decrying all as theological nonsense.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by purpledawn, posted 09-29-2011 6:41 AM purpledawn has acknowledged this reply

  
caffeine
Member
Posts: 1761
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008
Member Rating: 3.3


Message 8 of 22 (635659)
09-30-2011 10:52 AM


A flat earth
IAmJoseph writes:

are you even aware till a few centuries ago, the Hebrew bible is the only theology which did NOT say the earth is flat!?

This is wholly besides the point of what IAJ is supposed to be arguing, but it's also, of course, not true. The ancient Greeks were well aware that the earth was spherical, and thanks to them so were Islamic and Hindu scholars - for many, many centuries.

The Bible itself is a bit ambiguous on the shape of the earth. There are verses which could be interpreted as describing a flat earth, though we could charitably forgive them as poetic imagery.


Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by IamJoseph, posted 09-30-2011 8:58 PM caffeine has not yet responded

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12657
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


(1)
Message 9 of 22 (635660)
09-30-2011 11:22 AM


Moderator Request
Would the performers please vacate the audience and return to the stage? Thank you.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

  
Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 2907 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


Message 10 of 22 (635673)
09-30-2011 1:44 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by purpledawn
09-30-2011 6:40 AM


Re: Bible Study
I think a fundamental problem with the dating argument is that (I assume) IAJ believes the Hebrew Bible to have been authored by Moses, and assigns a date for that based on his view of Exodus.

So, this would bring in the historicity of Moses (and the Exodus) and greatly widen the scope of the debate. That is, if IAJ assumes that Moses was the author. I think this is a brick wall, because IAJ will not be able to bring evidence (outside of tradition, say) of an extremely ancient origin for the Hebrew Bible, and Butterfly won't be able to accept that IAJ takes the tradition that Moses authored the texts as evidence.

At least, that's my assumption at this point. Could very well be wrong.

Edited by Wollysaurus, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 20 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2011 5:35 AM Wollysaurus has not yet responded

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2084 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 11 of 22 (635710)
09-30-2011 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by caffeine
09-30-2011 10:52 AM


Re: A flat earth
I'd appreciate any evidence of the Greeks observing anything other than only a flat earth with a circus canopy of stars atop - this is infact what Christianity took on board till the telescope was discovered. Islam is not in the loop - it is a new belief system, its scriptures upholding a flat earth, with 90% of ts scriptures being a lift off from the Hebrew and Christian bibles; Arabic itself is a new writings emerging as recently as 300 CE.

When examing the workings of the Hebrew calendar, which is unquely based on the solar, lunar and earth movements, there is no other understanding than of a sphearical earth.

Edited by IamJoseph, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 09-30-2011 9:11 PM IamJoseph has not yet responded
 Message 13 by Admin, posted 09-30-2011 9:37 PM IamJoseph has responded

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 522 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 12 of 22 (635711)
09-30-2011 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by IamJoseph
09-30-2011 8:58 PM


Re: A flat earth
I'd appreciate any evidence of the Greeks observing anything other than only a flat earth with a circus canopy of stars atop...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_Earth


Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Admin
Director
Posts: 12657
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002


Message 13 of 22 (635712)
09-30-2011 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by IamJoseph
09-30-2011 8:58 PM


Re: A flat earth
Hi IAJ,

The way this is supposed to work is that you and BFT have a discussion over in the The Hebrew Bible (Butterflytyrant and IamJoseph Only) thread while the audience discusses the performance in this one.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Wollysaurus
Member (Idle past 2907 days)
Posts: 52
From: US
Joined: 08-25-2011


Message 14 of 22 (635716)
09-30-2011 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Coyote
09-30-2011 9:11 PM


Re: A flat earth
Coyote, don't you understand that all that proves is the fact that the Greeks stole the idea from the Hebrew Bible??

Sorry, couldn't resist


This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by Coyote, posted 09-30-2011 9:11 PM Coyote has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 2084 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 15 of 22 (635718)
10-01-2011 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Admin
09-30-2011 9:37 PM


Re: A flat earth
OK. You may talk about me when I'm not here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Admin, posted 09-30-2011 9:37 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
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