Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,817 Year: 3,074/9,624 Month: 919/1,588 Week: 102/223 Day: 13/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Seashells on tops of mountains.
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 226 of 343 (635741)
10-01-2011 5:59 AM


Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
Wow Coyote. I thought you were better than this. Can we do the same thing with Creationist sites? There is a TON of info I can just quote and then say what you said:
Coyote writes:
Given this, I'll stick to evidence and you can play around with logic and religious belief all you want.
Here is the message Coyote couldn't deal with on his own:
Message 141
And here is the copy and paste from Coyote:
Message 142
Nice job. It's always refreshing to know when you get stumped there are websites who will corroborate our own interpretation of things.
If I ever do this in the future, I hope you'll look at it as good debating
Cheers
Anyway, i've been going thru this thread: Trilobites, Mountains and Marine Deposits - Evidence of a flood? Im currently at your comment now. That thread is closed so I thought i'd bring it up here.
I think the sea shells atop mountains is a good argument for the flood too but it can get complicated. If we are allowed to use entire quotes like you did and just say "given this" i'll do just fine in defending my position.
When faced with a difficult comment you copied and pasted. I can do that too.

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by fearandloathing, posted 10-01-2011 6:12 AM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 235 by Coyote, posted 10-01-2011 9:35 AM Chuck77 has replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 227 of 343 (635743)
10-01-2011 6:12 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 5:59 AM


Re: Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
I misunderstood, you only quoted what C wrote instead of the the whole message. confused me which isn't hard.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 5:59 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:25 AM fearandloathing has replied
 Message 231 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:30 AM fearandloathing has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 228 of 343 (635746)
10-01-2011 6:23 AM


Catastrophic
Hi RAZD,
This is from the other thread
the point of this thread is to deal with the rest of the mountain of evidence, evidence that shows multiple sequences of marine growth in several diverse layers throughout the mountains, and often interspersed with sequences of non-marine life in between the layers of marine growth. How does one upheaval explain this?
Message 158
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming?
Sorry, this may seen silly to ask but im just asking. Im not done with that thread yet so bear with me.

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by Granny Magda, posted 10-01-2011 6:40 AM Chuck77 has not replied
 Message 234 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-01-2011 9:19 AM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 237 by roxrkool, posted 10-01-2011 12:36 PM Chuck77 has replied
 Message 239 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2011 2:00 AM Chuck77 has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 229 of 343 (635747)
10-01-2011 6:25 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by fearandloathing
10-01-2011 6:12 AM


Re: Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
Try and click the messages I linked. Just give it a shot, it's easy. Move mouse and click.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by fearandloathing, posted 10-01-2011 6:12 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by fearandloathing, posted 10-01-2011 6:29 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


Message 230 of 343 (635748)
10-01-2011 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 229 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 6:25 AM


Re: Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
I did, misunderstood, I edited my original post, my apologies to you Chuck.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 229 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:25 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 231 of 343 (635749)
10-01-2011 6:30 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by fearandloathing
10-01-2011 6:12 AM


Re: Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
Ok, cool. Im good at confusing people usually.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by fearandloathing, posted 10-01-2011 6:12 AM fearandloathing has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by fearandloathing, posted 10-01-2011 6:34 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
fearandloathing
Member (Idle past 4145 days)
Posts: 990
From: Burlington, NC, USA
Joined: 02-24-2011


(1)
Message 232 of 343 (635750)
10-01-2011 6:34 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 6:30 AM


Re: Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
I have admitted I am wrong twice now.
Edited by fearandloathing, : No reason given.

"No sympathy for the devil; keep that in mind. Buy the ticket, take the ride...and if it occasionally gets a little heavier than what you had in mind, well...maybe chalk it off to forced conscious expansion: Tune in, freak out, get beaten."
Hunter S. Thompson
Ad astra per aspera
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:30 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Granny Magda
Member
Posts: 2462
From: UK
Joined: 11-12-2007
Member Rating: 4.0


(3)
Message 233 of 343 (635751)
10-01-2011 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 6:23 AM


Re: Catastrophic
Hi Chuck,
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming?
The problem is that we see plenty of fossils that preserve marine organisms like crinoids and articulate brachiopods; organisms that spent their lives anchored to the sea-bed. We see these fossils in "life assemblages", i.e. they are fossilised in the positions they occupied in life. This could not happen as the result of a flood.
Another type of problematic (for creationists) fossil is the trace fossil. There are countless examples of fossilised tracks, footprints, burrows and so on. these are incredibly commonplace. It is very hard to picture how these could have been formed in a flood.
This problem is compounded by the fact that there are multiple layers of such fossils. Only one layer can be the flood layer after all.
The basic problem for you here is that fossils tend to preserve whole ecosystems, with a range of creatures that inhabited a particular environment. They do not show the jumbled mess that we might expect from a single catastrophic event.
Mutate and Survive

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:23 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 234 of 343 (635762)
10-01-2011 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 6:23 AM


Re: Catastrophic
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming?
That's not very detailed. How do you envisage this happening?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:23 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 242 by Chuck77, posted 10-02-2011 3:54 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(3)
Message 235 of 343 (635764)
10-01-2011 9:35 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 5:59 AM


Re: Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
Have you any response to the substance of my message?
Fossils on mountain tops are anything but evidence for a global flood. Only one little bit of evidence is needed to show that: the fossils are of vastly different ages from one mountain top to the next.
If these fossils were from a single global flood they should date to the same year. They don't.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 5:59 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by Theodoric, posted 10-01-2011 10:04 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 244 by Chuck77, posted 10-02-2011 5:17 AM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 236 of 343 (635769)
10-01-2011 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Coyote
10-01-2011 9:35 AM


Chuck needs to learn what evidence is
Yeah I thought it was kind of interesting that he did not address the points.
I am always amazed at how the fundie mind works. Making shit up and blind speculation has much more authority than actual facts and evidence.
I am stunned by the attacks here against people that present evidence. The evidence that can be presented here is usually websites. Would Chuckie be more accepting of the evidence if you presented it as your own made up ideas? A debate is not just arguing ones current thoughts and ideas. It is finding and presenting evidence to support your assertions and points.
Chuckie writes:
Coyote using an entire quote from a website for a rebuttle
The problem with this is?
PS
And your source actually had references. Oh no!!, references. They are anathema to fundies.
Edited by Theodoric, : punctuation in subtitle
Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.
Edited by Theodoric, : Punctuation and sentence alyout

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Coyote, posted 10-01-2011 9:35 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by Chuck77, posted 10-02-2011 4:05 AM Theodoric has replied

  
roxrkool
Member (Idle past 989 days)
Posts: 1497
From: Nevada
Joined: 03-23-2003


(3)
Message 237 of 343 (635776)
10-01-2011 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 6:23 AM


Re: Catastrophic
Chuck77 writes:
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming?
Absolutely not.
First of all, uplift combined with "catastrophic" flooding of such immense proportions will not deposit anything on the tops of mountains. These two processes together will result in erosional systems, not depositional ones. Therefore, the tops of mountains will lose material to lower elevation and lower energy environments. All your marine fossils I would expect to find in basins in a jumbled, incoherent mess.
Instead, we find that fossils all over the planet appear in the same vertical succession and in the same lithologies, regardless of size, density, or shape -- characteristic properties that affect hydraulic sorting.
Then, of course, you'd have to explain the presence of fossilized, fully developed paleoreefs we find in a variety of stratigraphic positions all over the planet. All of which have been affected differently due to growth and development under distinct environmental conditions.
From AAPG (AAPG Bulletin; October 1999; v. 83; no. 10; p. 1552-1587):
quote:
Paleoreef maps; evaluation of a comprehensive database on Phanerozoic reefs
Wolfgang Kiessling, Erik Fluegel, and Jan Golonka
Universitaet Erlangen, Institut fuer Palaeontologie, Erlangen, Federal Republic of Germany
To get a better understanding of controls on reef development through time, we created a comprehensive database on Phanerozoic reefs. The database currently comprises 2470 reefs and contains information about geographic position/paleoposition, age, reef type, dimensions, environmental setting, paleontological and petrographical features, and reservoir quality of each buildup. Reef data were analyzed in two qualitatively different ways. The first type of analysis was by visualization of paleogeographic reef distribution maps. Five examples (Late Devonian, Early Permian, Late Triassic, Late Jurassic, middle Miocene) are presented to show the potential of paleoreef maps for paleogeographic and paleoclimatological reconstructions. The second type of analysis was a numerical processing of coded reef characteristics to realize major trends in reef evolution and properties of reef carbonates. The analysis of paleolatitudinal reef distributions through time shows pronounced asymmetries in some time slices, probably related to climatic asymmetries rather than controlled by plate tectonic evolution alone. The dominance of particular reef builders through time suggests that there are seven cycles of Phanerozoic reef development. First curves for the Phanerozoic distribution of bioerosion in reefs, bathymetric setting, and debris potential of reefs are presented. The observed pattern in the temporal and spatial distribution of reefs with reservoir quality may assist in hydrocarbon exploration. Statistical tests on the dependencies of reefal reservoir quality suggest that large size, high debris potential, low paleolatitude, high amount of marine aragonite cement, and a platform/shelf edge setting favor reservoir quality. Reefal reservoirs are significantly enhanced in times of high evaporite sedimentation, elevated burial of organic carbon, low oceanic crust production, low atmospheric CO 2 content, and cool paleoclimate, as well as when they are present in aragonite oceans.



This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:23 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Chuck77, posted 10-02-2011 1:58 AM roxrkool has replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 238 of 343 (635825)
10-02-2011 1:58 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by roxrkool
10-01-2011 12:36 PM


Re: Catastrophic
Ok, thanks roxrkool.
Im fairly confident my question was a silly one. A lot is made of this subject of seashells in Creationist circles. You hear it thrown around a lot.
Here is my dillema (if you care). I am not a geologist. I don't have any geologist training or friends who are geologists. I'm a Christian who believes there was a flood. I have these creationists sites that say there was a flood and provide tons of information to say why sea shells etc etc prove a world wide flood.
Then, there is the other side. Your side. Tonight after reading what you said, and grandma, i'll (naturally) go look for an explanation that will satisfy me about why your comments arent true.
Where does it end? Who should I believe? Maybe it was local? It confusing man.
Btw, the sea shells (marine life) argument is not listed in AIG's "arguments not to use" so I thought i'd go ahead and bring it up again ...thanks for the informed reply.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by roxrkool, posted 10-01-2011 12:36 PM roxrkool has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 248 by roxrkool, posted 10-02-2011 11:51 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 239 of 343 (635826)
10-02-2011 2:00 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Chuck77
10-01-2011 6:23 AM


Re: Catastrophic
Hi Chuck77,
I think most of the answer has been given, but there is one aspect that is not fully covered by those answers.
Couldn't the time it took to form the mountains, while in the process of going upward with all of the catastophic events going on have accumulated/incorporated all that marine life thoughtout the mountains while forming?
If you are thinking that the marine fossils come from actual marine growth in the bottoms of seas, which was then pushed up with the formation of the mountains, then they are not evidence of a flood, but evidence of mountain formation.
We see this mountain formation today, still slowly going on. Mt Everest is getting higher, and curiously, the rate of growth it currently has is sufficient to explain it's height in the time that this process has been going on -- according to geology and the evidence in the rocks.
Curiously, mountains are not known to be formed by floods, so you need some additional mechanism to explain that.
And if the mountains are formed by other means, then why do I need the flood to explain them, and then how is this evidence then for a flood?
... with all of the catastophic events going on ...
I haven't seen any documentation on catastropic events -- just rain for 40 days and nights, and the sewers backing up (oh wait that was Bill Cosby ... )
So what "catastrophic events" were involved? Chapter and verse?
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Chuck77, posted 10-01-2011 6:23 AM Chuck77 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Chuck77, posted 10-02-2011 2:15 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 241 by Chuck77, posted 10-02-2011 2:38 AM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
Chuck77
Inactive Member


Message 240 of 343 (635827)
10-02-2011 2:15 AM
Reply to: Message 239 by RAZD
10-02-2011 2:00 AM


Re: Catastrophic
Thanks RAZD.
So what "catastrophic events" were involved? Chapter and verse?
Im gonna speculate that this is one:
KJV-Genesis7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
I just a hypothesis RAZD. Probably not even that. I can probably find some more but im not gonna bog down the thread with verses. If there was a world wide flood there would have to be more than just some rain falling for 40 days and nights I think.
Edited by Chuck77, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 239 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2011 2:00 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 247 by RAZD, posted 10-02-2011 9:38 AM Chuck77 has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024