I have a marine aquarium and I have noticed that when I wake in the morning and turn on they're light some of them are huddled along the rock snoozing away. One of my fishes pigments is even a paler color when he first wakes up.
My birds sleep balanced on one leg. I wonder why not on two??
Dogs dream of chasing rabbits and such, but do they dream in color if they see in shades of gray?
One last question, how is it our memory of dreams fade so quickly? I could have the most lucid fantastic dream with every intention of remembering it. And in the space of taking a shower completely fail to recall most details.
Whilst the mind body problem is a fascinating topic in itself (maybe I'll start a thread at some point) but let's not explicitly go there here. But on that note....You must admit that physical things (e.g. drugs) can induce dream like states, hallucinations and all of the other things that you seem to consider non-physical. Isn't sleep (and dreaming) just bio-chemistry at the end of the day?
Well. you may be right but isn't an hallucination a form of dream. In both cases you are observing something isn't a result of our eyesight. What is it that forms that image? It seems to me to be something more than memory partly because it is a different kind of image and partly because it is often something we have never before experienced.
I spent a lot of time in Hong Kong. A lot of my dreams seem to take place there. However when the dream causes me wake up I realize that the Hong Kong in my dreams was nothing like the Hong Kong that I spent time in.
It just seems to me that our consciousness or mind is not just a part of our brain. It is almost as if our brain is the conduit between our physical reality and our mind.
The internal workings of the brain? Which would explain why drugs, lack of sleep and other things which affect brain physiology can have such an obvious effect.
GDR writes:
It just seems to me that our consciousness or mind is not just a part of our brain.
Well I'll grant you that is how it seems.
But then the Earth seems to be obviously flat.
GDR writes:
It is almost as if our brain is the conduit between our physical reality and our mind.
But if you mess with people's brains their "minds" appear to change. Surely this is rather conclusive evidence that the mind is a product of the brain.
But you're burning those calories for a repairing process, just think how much you'd be burning if you were repairing while you were still active.
I do agree that the total unconsciousness aspect of it is a bit weird.
The lack of rhyme or reason in how much sleep is needed (a giraffe needs less than 2 hours of sleep a day and an elephant about 3 - Why? I would have thought size would make sleep more necessary).
As grazers they have a pretty-much-constant input of energy.
Compared to the carnivores, who only eat so often and therefore need a lot more sleep.
The python is cold blooded so that just adds a whole nuther element...
but do they dream in color if they see in shades of gray?
They see in colour but they are red green colour blind, rather than shades of gray.
I seem to remember that our memories of dreams in part depends on how significant or arousing the dream was: I can remember nightmares I had when I was 5 (it terrified me).
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
The lack of rhyme or reason in how much sleep is needed (a giraffe needs less than 2 hours of sleep a day and an elephant about 3 - Why? I would have thought size would make sleep more necessary). Etc. etc. etc.
And to add to the muddle: individual humans need very different amounts of sleep. I tend to only need about 4-5 hours of sleep a day but I know many people that struggle with less than 8 hours.
If I were you And I wish that I were you All the things I'd do To make myself turn blue
It just seems to me that our consciousness or mind is not just a part of our brain. It is almost as if our brain is the conduit between our physical reality and our mind.
That's what Descartes thought, too.
He was wrong, too.
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
And if you mess with the computer screen, then the content of this forum appears to change... but does it?
Buy you are not messing with the screen; it's the CPU you are messing with.
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
And to add to the muddle: individual humans need very different amounts of sleep. I tend to only need about 4-5 hours of sleep a day but I know many people that struggle with less than 8 hours.
While it is true that people get by on varying amounts of sleep most of use go through the same amount of cycles of sleep stages. What changes is the time it takes to go through REM to stage 4 sleep and back to REM again.
We can effectively condense our sleep time by shortening the sleep cycles through practice.
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
The lack of rhyme or reason in how much sleep is needed (a giraffe needs less than 2 hours of sleep a day and an elephant about 3 - Why? I would have thought size would make sleep more necessary). Etc. etc. etc.
I don't think the amount of sleep is that arbitrary. It's related to ecological factors - how much sleep you can get away with - and metabolic factors - animals with a slower basal metabolic rate sleep less. Elephants have a very low basal metabolic rate, and need to spend a lot of time travelling great distances to get a lot of food, so need very little sleep. Rats have a high metabolic rate, and tend to sleep safely tucked away in burrows where they're mostly protected from danger, so can afford to sleep for a long time. Antelope have a higher metabolic rate than elephants, but only sleep a couple hours more because of the ecological constraint of having to be alert for predators most of the day.
Here's something weird I just discovered whilst reading the wikipedia aricle about sleep, which clearly shows that there's more going on than simply energy conservation. Hibernating animals need to sleep. To do so, they have to come out of their hibernating state, thus increasing their energy consumption.
My unevidenced speculation is that dreams may be hallmarks of something important. Perhaps one of the functions of sleep is to do something with the brain which cannot be done in a waking (or hibernating) state, and dreams are the byproduct of whatever this process is.
Edited by caffeine, : Because I acceidentally wrote that elephants need lots of sleep, when I meant very little sleep.
I do agree that the total unconsciousness aspect of it is a bit weird.
It is isn't it. And when you think that some creatures sleep half their brain at a time, some can do things like fly whilst asleep and even we can do bizzarre acts (like drive, cook, write emails etc.) whilst sleep walking - It's just very strange.
CS writes:
Compared to the carnivores, who only eat so often and therefore need a lot more sleep.
Is that a genuine fact - That carnivores sleep more than grazing herbivores? It seems like a realistic pattern but I am not sure if you are just speculating or if this is a known pattern.
But if you mess with people's brains their "minds" appear to change.
CS writes:
And if you mess with the computer screen, then the content of this forum appears to change... but does it?
What are you suggesting? That your mind exists somewhere free from the effects of chemistry? Without the effects of various hormones on your brain (e.g. testosterone) you would be a very different person wouldn't you? What is your "mind" if it isn't your personality and personhood?
CS writes:
Heh, I think you meant that the mind is a product of the brain, but I still don't think the evidence is all that conclusive
Yup. Changed it above.
But I am intrigued by this notion you have of a blank slate mind free from the effects of the chemicals in your body. It makes no sense to me.
And how is this biology free mind related to dreaming/sleeping?
I don't think the amount of sleep is that arbitrary. It's related to ecological factors - how much sleep you can get away with
Doesn't this sort of go back to what CS and I were talking about?
If sleep makes one vulnerable then surely it would be evolved out to some extent. This seems to be in line with what you are saying here. Those animals that are put most at risk by sleeping seem to need considerably less of it.
I also take on board what you say about metabolic factors. Point well made.
Caff writes:
My unevidenced speculation is that dreams may be hallmarks of something important. Perhaps one of the functions of sleep is to do something with the brain which cannot be done in a waking (or hibernating) state, and dreams are the byproduct of whatever this process is.
Maybe. But it's still all a bit vague. I'll try and find some stuff on scientific research into why we dream.
With your name I'm surprised your so into a thread about sleep.....
If sleep makes one vulnerable then surely it would be evolved out to some extent. This seems to be in line with what you are saying here.
But in many cases one is less vulnerable because of staying still and quiet in times when ones vision is inappropriate for the light conditions.
To give a real world example: when all those people were blinded by that meteoric shower which were the ones who got killed by Triffids, the ones who stayed in thier homes or the ones that flailed around in the street?
Poor vision + predators with better vision = bit part.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.
The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53
Moreover that view is a blatantly anti-relativistic one. I'm rather inclined to think that space being relative to time and time relative to location should make such a naive hankering to pin-point an ultimate origin of anything, an aspiration that is not even wrong.
Well, Larni, let's say I much better know what I don't want to say than how exactly say what I do.
If sleep makes one vulnerable then surely it would be evolved out to some extent. This seems to be in line with what you are saying here. Those animals that are put most at risk by sleeping seem to need considerably less of it.
But animals still seem to go for as much as their lifestyle and safety would permit, so whatever the reason is that we sleep, it seems to be pretty damn important.
Maybe. But it's still all a bit vague. I'll try and find some stuff on scientific research into why we dream.
You call that 'a bit' vague? It couldn't be any less precise if I tried. You could try looking at this page, all about dream research from UC Santa Cruz. The brief glance I've had seems to argue strongly against my vague speculation though. For starters, they claim that you don't start to dream until the age of about 5 or 6, and thus animals with less detailed cognitive worlds probably don't dream. I'll have more of a read later.
. For starters, they claim that you don't start to dream until the age of about 5 or 6, and thus animals with less detailed cognitive worlds probably don't dream.
My dog dreams you can see him running in his sleep sometimes he moves too much and wakes himself up.
kindof like this
Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
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