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Author Topic:   Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?
shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 711 of 760 (623212)
07-08-2011 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 708 by Percy
07-07-2011 2:29 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
Shadow71 writes:
Do you disagree with the findings that the CRISPR System discussed in the paper is dedicated, nonrandom and beneficial
If someone would ANSWER the question I would not have to repeat it.
There seems to be on this board scientists who refuse to acknowledge scientific findings that go against the grain of evolutionary dogma of today.
Let me rephrase. Does the modern evolutionary theory accept findings of "mutations that are dedicated, nonrandom and beneficial?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 708 by Percy, posted 07-07-2011 2:29 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 714 by Wounded King, posted 07-08-2011 5:12 PM shadow71 has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 713 of 760 (623214)
07-08-2011 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 709 by Taq
07-08-2011 12:05 AM


Re: Natural Engineering
Taq writes:
So you admit that there is no known mechanism for directed mutations outside of CRISPR domains?
NO I was discussing possible new discoveries in the CRISPR System.
Shapiro has already discussed, even on this board, his findings in his 2010 paper (biasing retrovirus insertion upstream of coding regions) that are non-random with respect to their potential biological utility.
CRISPR seem to be a continuation of these discovries.
Also Barbara Wright's paper that both I and Ziko cited discusses directed, non-random mutations for fitness.
So this area of evolutionary mechanisms is opening quite nicely.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 709 by Taq, posted 07-08-2011 12:05 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 729 by Taq, posted 07-11-2011 12:28 AM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 715 of 760 (623304)
07-09-2011 8:59 AM


Definition of Evolution
I have been meditating on my OP and I really need a good definition of evolution. As many have pointed out on this board, my referals to the MS, Darwin's theory, the modern theory have been not as explicit as they should be.
So as I read the posts and papers etc. it appears that evolution as defined today contains many aspects that were not usually cited when I began my reading on evolution.
Here is a definition I came across on the web. Would like your thoughts on this so it can be determined if in fact the OP can be correctely addressed.
Here is the definition of Laurence Moran.
Taking these ideas into account I propose the following definition;
Biological evolution is the process of change in the genetic
makeup of a population.
This definition is necessary and sufficient (IMHO).
Laurence A. Moran (Larry)
Dept. of Biochemistry
University of Toronto

Replies to this message:
 Message 716 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2011 9:41 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 717 by Percy, posted 07-09-2011 9:43 AM shadow71 has replied
 Message 720 by Wounded King, posted 07-09-2011 5:59 PM shadow71 has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 718 of 760 (623308)
07-09-2011 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 716 by Dr Adequate
07-09-2011 9:41 AM


Re: Definition of Evolution
Dr Adequate writes:
That seems reasonable.
To which one might add: the theory of evolution is the set of known mechanisms by which evolution takes place.
Darwinism might then be defined as the theory of evolution plus the principle of common descent. It would be nicer to have a better word than "Darwinism", but it'll have to do.
Thanks Dr A.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 716 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-09-2011 9:41 AM Dr Adequate has not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 719 of 760 (623309)
07-09-2011 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 717 by Percy
07-09-2011 9:43 AM


Re: Definition of Evolution
Percy writes:
It's ironic that the very next message is you once again quoting someone.
Instead of you polling us over and over again about whether we agree with this quote or that quote, perhaps you could present evidence and argument supporting the quote and then discuss the answers.
Don't get so bent out of shape Percy. Just wanted to clarify something for myself.
Dr. Adequate helped me with his reply.
So now I am rereading papers on CRISPR System and will reply to WK and your responses.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 717 by Percy, posted 07-09-2011 9:43 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 735 of 760 (625117)
07-21-2011 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 714 by Wounded King
07-08-2011 5:12 PM


Re: Natural Engineering
Wounded King writes:
think I have made a reasonable case that the choice of sequences incorporated is not non-random in any meaningful sense, beyond perhaps a variable specificity for certain common motifs occurring hundreds of times even in the small genomes of bacteriophages.
I think this paper disagrees with your opinion;
"RNA-guided complex from a bacterial immune
system enhances target recognition through
seed sequence interactions"
Blake Wiedenhefta,b, Esther van Duijnc,1, Jelle Bultemad,1, Sakharam Waghmaree,1, Kaihong Zhoua,1, Arjan Barendregtc,
Wiebke Westphalb, Albert Heckc, Egbert Boekemad, Mark Dickmane, and Jennifer A. Doudnaa,b,f,g,2
aHoward Hughes Medical Institute; bDepartment of Molecular and Cell Biology, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720; fPhysical Biosciences Division,
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, Berkeley, CA 94720; Department of Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720; gDepartment of
Chemistry, University of California, Berkeley, CA 94720; cBiomolecular Mass Spectrometry and Proteomics Group, Bijvoet Center for Biomolecular
Research, Utrecht Institute for Pharmaceutical Sciences, and The Netherlands Proteomics Center, Utrecht University, Padualaan 8, 3584 CH Utrecht,
The Netherlands; dElectron Microscopy Group, Groningen Biomolecular Sciences and Biotechnology Institute, University of Groningen, Nijenborgh 4,
9747 AG, Groningen, The Netherlands; and eDepartment of Chemical and Biological Engineering, ChELSI Institute, University of Sheffield,
Mappin Street, Sheffield S1 3JD, United Kingdom
Contributed by Jennifer A. Doudna, February 24, 2011 (sent for review January 5, 2011)
In the abstract they write;
Prokaryotes have evolved multiple versions of an RNA-guided
adaptive immune system that targets foreign nucleic acids. In each
case, transcripts derived from clustered regularly interspaced short
palindromic repeats (CRISPRs) are thought to selectively target invading
phage and plasmids in a sequence-specific process involving
a variable cassette of CRISPR-associated (cas) genes.
and;
Here we show
that the Csy proteins (Csy1C4) assemble into a 350 kDa ribonucleoprotein
complex that facilitates target recognition by enhancing
sequence-specific hybridization between the CRISPR RNA and complementary
target sequences. Target recognition is enthalpically
driven and localized to a seed sequence at the 5 end of the
CRISPR RNA spacer.
and;
These repetitive elements rapidly expand
in response to phage challenge by site-specifically integrating
short fragments of the foreign DNA at one end of the evolving
CRISPR (3C5). CRISPR adaptation results in sequence-specific
resistance to genetic parasites containing a complementary sequence.
and;
Here we report the discovery of a CRISPR-associated complex
from the PA14 strain of P. aeruginosa. The complex is composed
of a unique set of proteins, which have previously been shown
to be exclusive to and conserved in the Csy subfamily (CRISPR
system yersinia) of CRISPR-mediated immune systems (7, 9).
We show that this complex participates in target recognition by
facilitating sequence-specific hybridization between the crRNA
and complementary targets. Similar to mRNA recognition by
Argonaute proteins during RNA interference (RNAi) in eukar-
yotes, CRISPR target selection is governed by a seed sequence
at the 5 end of the crRNA spacer. Although comprised of distinct
proteins, the stoichiometry and the morphology of the Csy complex
resemble the architecture of the Cascade complex from
E. coli. These findings suggest that large CRISPR-associated
ribonucleoproteins mediate surveillance and target recognition in
diverse CRISPR-mediated immune systems.
Also Shapiro in his book "Evolution a view from the 21st century"
wrote aboult the famous Luria-Delbruck fluctation test that purported to prove that infection could not induce resistance. In fact Shapiro states that what Luria and Delbruck:
" demonstrated was that mutations conferring resistance to a virus that is invariably lethal immediately upon infection do occur prior to selection. They never could disprove the operation of a CRISPR or other infection-triggered resistance mechanism for other viruses, such as temperate bacteriophages. The incorporation of fragments from invading DNA elements for the purpose of self-defense (the CRISPR system has been described as a genomic immune system is a precise example of the kind of dedicated, nonrandom, beneficial change specifically excluded by generations of evolutionary theorists."
In the Kafginov paper http:http://www.ncbi.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819186/
The authors wrote;
Thus, during the acquisition of a defensive repertoire, the CRISPR machinery appears to select sequences from the phage genome and incorporate these as novel spacers (Fig. 2B). The selection is not random. Instead, sequence motifs can be detected in proximity to those regions that ultimately become part of the CRISPR, termed proto-spacers. Analysis of spacers newly added to the CRISPR1 locus of independently selected S. thermophilus phage-insensitive mutants identified a short motif (NNAGAAW) directly downstream of the proto-spacer in the phage genome (Deveau et al., 2008). A similar motif was independently observed by Bolotin and colleagues (Bolotin et al., 2005). Interestingly, spacers from CRISPR3, a locus with some divergence from CRISPR1, showed a different downstream motif, NGGNG, near proto-spacers (Horvath et al., 2008). In S. mutans, one CRISPR locus displayed a preference for a short motif 3′ of the proto-spacer, while another CRISPR locus favored a 5′-adjacent motif (van der Ploeg, 2009). Similarly, three different CRISPR families in the archaeal Sulfolobales have distinct 5′ proto-spacer adjacent motifs (PAMs) (Lillestol et al., 2009). Like the repeat and leader sequences, distinct PAMs correspond to specific CRISPR/cas subtypes (see the section on CRISPR/cas co-evolution below). This suggests that spacer acquisition is driven by recognition of phage sequences by subtype-specific proteins in different species (Mojica et al., 2009). However, it also implies that when an individual species harbors multiple CRISPR loci from different subtypes, these represent distinct and compartmentalized resistance systems. In addition to its suggested role in spacer selection, the PAM also appears to be important at the effector stage of defense, since phage can evade resistance to a particular spacer by mutating this nearby motif (Deveau et al., 2008).
And at p.13
However, armed with knowledge of the molecular basis of this response, CRISPR-cas does seem to fit more firmly with a Lamarckian paradigm, in essence because increases in fitness do not rely on random mutations but on a much more specific acquisition of genetic information from environmental sources.
Based on what I have read I believe it shows that the CRISPR System is nonrandom for fitness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 714 by Wounded King, posted 07-08-2011 5:12 PM Wounded King has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 744 of 760 (636882)
10-11-2011 7:29 PM


Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
I am reading Ernst Mayr's book "What evolution Is" 2001, and he states in the conclusion of chapt 7 p. 157 Adaptedness and Natural Selection: Anagensis:
"Genetic material (nucleic acids) is constant and impervious to any influence from the environment. No genetic information can be transmitted from proteins to nucleic acids, and so the inheritance of acquired characters is therefdore impossible. This provides an absolute refutation of all Lamarckian theories of evolution. The Darwinian model of evolution, based on random variation and natural selection, explains satisfactorily all phenomena of evolutionary change at the species level, and in particular adaptation."
This to me seems to be statement that the "Central Dogma" is in fact correct and that Shapiro et al. are wrong. Any comments on the accurracy of Mayr's statement?
If he is incorrect doesn't this in fact support this thread?
"Does the Darwinian theory require modification or replacement?"

Replies to this message:
 Message 745 by Percy, posted 10-11-2011 8:15 PM shadow71 has not replied
 Message 746 by Taq, posted 10-12-2011 12:04 PM shadow71 has replied
 Message 750 by Meddle, posted 10-12-2011 10:15 PM shadow71 has replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 748 of 760 (636980)
10-12-2011 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 746 by Taq
10-12-2011 12:04 PM


Re: Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
Taq writes:
Not without reading more of the book to understand what he is getting at. Does Mayr deal with transposons, retrotransposons, or the process of mutagenesis at all in the book?
He devotes one paragraph to transposable elelments and then suggest the reader confer a genetics textbook for detailed treatment on the manifold manifestations of transposable elements.
He does write at p100 "No selectively valuable contributions are known for any of the TEs."

This message is a reply to:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 749 of 760 (636982)
10-12-2011 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 747 by Taq
10-12-2011 12:08 PM


Taq writes:
From that quote, do you think Mayr is happy with the current Modern Synthesis?
yes he seems to be, but is he up to date and correct in that quote?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This message is a reply to:
 Message 747 by Taq, posted 10-12-2011 12:08 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 753 of 760 (637129)
10-13-2011 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 750 by Meddle
10-12-2011 10:15 PM


Re: Mayr and Darwinian model of evolution
Edited by AdminModulous, : summaries only now please. content hidden. You can use peek to view contents.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 750 by Meddle, posted 10-12-2011 10:15 PM Meddle has seen this message but not replied

shadow71
Member (Idle past 2961 days)
Posts: 706
From: Joliet, il, USA
Joined: 08-31-2010


Message 754 of 760 (637147)
10-13-2011 7:40 PM


SUMMATION. DOES THE DARWINIAN THEORY REQUIRE MODIFICATION OR REPLACEMENT?
I have to admit I have failed. The Darwinian theory from Darwin to Neo-Darwinism to the Modern Synthesis are perfectly correct. All who talk about Molecular biology, information exchange in the cells, Genetic changes that are non random and driven by the enviroment, stavation etc. are fools.
The Cental Dogma is correct, there is not information exchange from proteins to DNA, RNA, ect.
Endosymbiosis
Reticulate evolution
Evo-Devo
Phenotypic Plasticity
Gene flow
genetic drift
Fusion of genomes and gene fragaments
methylation of DNA
hybridization
Polyploidy
CRISPS
Epigenetics
THATS ALL BULLSHIT.
As Mayr says
Medelian genetics, by proving the constancy of genes, completely contraticts soft inheritance. Finally it was shown by molecular biology that NO INFORMATION CAN BE TRANSMITTED FROM THE PROTEINS OF THE BODY TO THE NUCLEIC ACIDS OF THE GERM CELLS, IN OTHER WORDS, THAT AN INHERITANCE OF ACQUIRED CHARACTERS DOES NOT TAKE PLACE, THIS IS THE CENTRAL DOGMA OF MOLECULAR BIOLOGY.
Anyone who argues against this should be drawn and quartered. Let us open minded Darwin believers rest in peace.
Let Shapiro and those heretics be banned from the kingdom.
Let Nobles et. al. be banned from the Kingdom.
We will not take dissent.
Nothing is planned.
Nothing is directed.
All is random, unplanned, and if it were to happen again, it would all be different.
Long live Dawkins.
Edited by shadow71, : No reason given.

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