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Author | Topic: The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Can we even agree on what God should be?
For instance, which traits would seem logical and preferable? Omnipotence? Favor for humans? (or at least affinity) Ralational? Approachable? Understanding our limited ability to comprehend?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Well can we at least try and agree on what God likely is?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: LOL Sure. Make up any God you like. But that has absolutely nothing to do with what GOD actually is. Is it thus likely that no human story or description of God or god is even likely to be similar to the reality?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Fair enough. You have persuaded me of the logic that shows how nobody can really prove God. Behavior matters more than profession.
Switching topics a bit.... "Why Atheists?" You have hinted that you believe that Heaven, if Heaven exists (or the next good place after our physical deaths here on earth) will probably contain many more atheists than it will Christians. What evidence do you have to make this assertion? I don't believe that I have any more of a chance to make it than anyone else, but I also believe that I don't have less of a chance either.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I say open this puppy back up! All can now participate. I asked some important questions back in message 22 and onward, and would like to see comments from additional EvC members.
So jar....in your belief, does God have any influence over what we humans decide to do?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
I started discussing the whole "evil god" idea.
phat,message#22 writes: One thing I don't understand is the evil God thing you keep bringing up. Lets discuss it Basically, we then argue the case for Gods foreknowledge making God out to be evil. To this day I still dont quite get the logic of that argument. If God foreknew that a person would live a life choosing to reject God and/or proper morality and whom would be judged as damned, why does this make God evil? Critics may argue that this person had no other choice, given that their script was already written. I suppose the only way out of this argument is to say that I don't know what God knows and thus cannot accuse God of being evil. Nor can anyone else. You don't indict a Supreme Being without having your own ducks in a row, after all. Edited by Phat, : changed title to reflect forthcoming Jewish philosophy
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Does not this portray an imperfect Deity? While I can admit that the doctrine of Original Sin may be challenged, I certainly can't imagine that suddenly humans are responsible for judging God Himself...unless God somehow plays the role only to teach us something. A God, (THE GOD) by definition of most of club christian is all wise and certainly not prone to making mistakes and/or being judged. We are charged to judge even God's behavior and to point out where God is behaving poorly. And before you point out the text, that brings up another thing. Why are we limited to defining and explaining God purely on the words of one collection of books known as the Bible? IF God created/imagined humanity before we even had the ability to create/imagine Him in our own minds, shouldn't we be able to question the character of such a Deity? Myself, I prefer to think of a Deity who is wiser, stronger, and more complete than I or any other human is.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Not at all...keep reminding us what scripture says. The overall topic (or subtopic, as it is) is belief...and how people arrive at their belief. All I am suggesting is that God is not determined or defined by any one human. (Or book, for that matter.)
What is the topic of the thread? Now you say I should not point out what the Bible actually says? Chuck77 writes: Actually, Chuck, jar does know what the Bible says, probably better than most of us. He differs in that he does not believe the collection of books known as the Bible is inerrant or somehow the final word from God. My faith is based on my experience (as I believe it to be and have felt that is is and was) from encounters with God Himself. Jar would rightly question me..."how do you know that it is or was God?" And he does have a point. Who is any one group or chapter of Christianity to tell everyone else what the book means or is supposed to mean? It's taken me long enough but I finally figured it out. Whenever Jar talks about Christianity he's using Poe's Law, but without the smilies. That's what throws eveyone off. Becauae really, the dude hasn't the slightest clue at all what the Bible teaches says or means let alone anything concerning Christianity whatsoever. Thats why we have this discussion forum and why I am resurrecting this old topic. So what are we discussing now? In my opinion, we are discussing human interpretations of who God is, what our role is, and how our relationship with each other and perhaps with a Deity unfolds in this discussion. Jar and I had what I thought was a good exchange of ideas concerning Gods foreknowledge and human freewill or lack of same.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Phat writes: My question to you is: In your quest for testing your beliefs and affirming some things and rejecting others, how do you determine what is and is not of God? jar writes: You test against reason, logic and reality Has it been your experience in your spiritual beliefs that it appears that what God says (in the books) is unreasonable, illogical, or unrealistic? Is this why you say: quote: In your preferred chapter of club Christian, are people actively encouraged to question the Bible?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
OK, master...grasshopper will try again to make better use of his wording in his questions!
1)Does the Bible suggest that God is unreasonable, illogical, or unrealistic? 1a) Do you personally believe that GOD (The One you believe exists as said in the Nicene Creed is unreasonable, illogical, or unrealistic?(I'm guessing that you are going to say that its silly to discuss an unknowable conception) 2) Are Anglicans and Episcopalians encouraged to question the Bible and in what it says or means for believers and people in general today?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Ian, do you believe that the Bible describes God completely? Do you believe that God can be known fully and understood fully? Are humans able to fully understand the reasoning of such a Deity? Is it more important to understand Him or to understand each other?
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: Huh? The God described in the Nicene Creed is whom? GOD, God, or god? The purpose of this question, and what I'm trying to drag out of you, is whether we can arrive at a consensus of who God is, assuming that GOD is unknowable and that god is, as pointed out by you, a chameleon of poetic license past and present. By the way, you may explain to our other participants what you mean by GOD, God, and god. I was under the impression that GOD is the actual Deity who either absolutely exists or absolutely does not. God is the human attempts to frame such a Deity and define such a Deity based on beliefs, customs, and experiences. I'm not sure what you meant by god.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: I've been doing some thinking lately and conclude that Gods foreknowledge is unknown. I believe that He created us with the ability to turn right or left, however. We can never claim that He foreknew that we would end up in one spot.
You are being inconsistent again. You said God foreknows every decision that will be made. Edited by Phat, : fixed boo boo
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: We can never know. All that we can do is live the best way that we innately know how. The journey is more important than the destination. So God does not have foreknowledge? You and I can theoretically say that IF God knows this or that, then_________ but realistically, it is an unanswerable question.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
jar writes: If God Creates something and is aware of all that that critter will do in the future, then that critter has no freewill. It really is simple. If I create a machine that I know will always turn left, then even if that thing "Thinks it will decide which way to turn" it will always turn left. If you created a machine that had an awareness of right and left and chose its directions based on evaluation, even if you had a printout indicating the directions that the machine would go during its operating life, all that you would see on the printout is the result of the machines computations.
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